Here's a powerful, tragic example of how people can be speaking different languages.
Most Westerners believe that the solution to the Arab-Israeli conflict lies in the "Two State Solution."
The Palestinian Authority, led by Abbas, also speaks about the desire for the Two State Solution.
Westerners therefore assume that the moderate, mainstream position in the Palestinian world is the same as theirs.
But what does the "Two State Solution" actually mean?
For Westerners, one of these states would be a Jewish State, primarily inhabited by Jews, but also with some Arab citizens - after all, it would be unthinkable to expel them. The other state would be a Palestinian State, primarily inhabited by Palestinians, but also with some Jewish citizens.
But when Palestinians speak about their desire for the "Two State Solution," they mean something else entirely, as Abbas made clear today. See this article in Ha'Aretz, in which aside from refusing to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and insisting on the "right of return" for all Palestinians, he also refuses to accept "any Israeli presence, whether civilian or military, on the Palestinian territories."
So when Palestinians talk about a "Two State Solution," they mean one non-denominational state inhabited by Jews and Palestinians, and one Palestinian state inhabited solely by Palestinians.
I wish that every time a Westerner would talk about Palestinians who are interested in peace, this would be pointed out.
Monday, September 6, 2010
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My, this is interesting. Rav Chaim Kanievsky ztz"l was proclaimed for many years to be the authoritative voice of Daas Torah . Countle...
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While Judaism has been around for thousands of years, it has changed in various ways over history. Concepts and beliefs changed. Certain thi...
The hypocrisy of the world screams out to the heavens.
ReplyDeleteThis is why organizations like Media Watch and Camera are important, to expose the differences between what the Palestinian leaders say in English and what they say in Arabic.
Yes, but the problem is that even when they speak in English, it's a different language!
ReplyDelete1) Abbas is not interested in peace. That's why he shows up with unreasonable demands. That's why Arafat, y"h, rejected a deal which gave him 99% of what he was asking for. There are reasons for this, for example life is bette for the Arabs under Israeli rule and they know it, but the bottom line is that he has no interest in a final agreement and even if Bibi were to completely capitulate and offer him everything he wanted unconditionally, he would reject it.
ReplyDelete2) The world is well aware that the Arab state would be 100% Judenrein. Don't fool yourself on that. It is a function of their racism that they don't care. They see us an enlightened, like the whites in South Africa so we have to have a multi-ethnic state but they still see the Arabs as savages so they don't get hot under the collar when those savages want to create a racist state. They don't expect better of them, the same way they've lost interest in Robert Mugabe's ongoing oppresion of his white population.
3) To be perfectly precise, the two state solution proposed by the Arabs isn't as you described it. Yes, they expect one state to be 100% Arab but the other they expect to absorb 4-5 million supposed refugees so that it will immediately lose its Jewish character and within 1 generation have an Arab majority.
Is it really a common belief among Westerners that Jews would have the right to live in a future Palestinian state?
ReplyDeleteI think most observers, in North America at least, appreciate that any Palestinian state would be for Arabs only.
"But when Palestinians speak about their desire for the "Two State Solution," they mean something else entirely, as Abbas made clear today. See this article in Ha'Aretz, in which aside from refusing to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and insisting on the "right of return" for all Palestinians, he also refuses to accept "any Israeli presence, whether civilian or military, on the Palestinian territories."
ReplyDeleteSo when Palestinians talk about a "Two State Solution," they mean one non-denominational state inhabited by Jews and Palestinians, and one Palestinian state inhabited solely by Palestinians.
I wish that every time a Westerner would talk about Palestinians who are interested in peace, this would be pointed out. "
So lets see, right now your have an Israeli state run by Jews and .... occupied territories run by Jews and where the Jews continue building as if they plan on being there forever. Oh my God! The hypocrisy! Can you believe that the Palestinians don't want the Israelis on their land?? And can you believe that they think that people who used to live in Palestine have a right to go back? It makes no sense, downright hypocritical; we took their land fair and square.
I think "two-state solution" is a phrase with no compositional meaning for anyone. For the Israeli left, it means the purchase of legitimacy for Israel through the suffering of Jews being thrown out of their houses. For the West, it means the destruction of Israel. For the Arabs, it means nothing.
ReplyDeleteTel Aviv, seeing the Arab refusal to live with a Jewish State, declares itself guilty. Indeed, Tel Aviv was built on stolen Arab lands, and the price has not been paid. And so, Tel Aviv wants to pay, needs to pay. The price, Tel Aviv has decided by itself, is a Judenrein Arab state in Yehuda and Shomron. Only a true sacrifice can clear its conscience - "painful concessions." The sacrifice does not come from Tel Aviv itself, of course. Tel Aviv plans a Korban in its stead: The settlers.
And so they scream to the world: Two-state solution! It resonates in the West because it gives hope that Israel will yet disappear. The Arabs however, will not budge, though at times they play along. They know that the idea is coming from the Jews.
The sad thing is that most of these two-state final solution maniacs, if you told them what 'two-state' really included, ie - the Judenrein Fakestinian state alongside a state for all its foreign peoples and fake refugees - they would actually agree with the PLO terrorist Abbas that that is justice, and the Jews should just "live with it and stop getting our sons killed overseas for selfish peculiar Jewish designs." The world has gone crazy.
ReplyDeleteGreat post, btw. Interesting to see the Rabbi's take on the national "current events."
You don't need to be religious or secular to agree with what the prophets wrote about the future (or the time we're living now) of Israel...
ReplyDeleteIsrael has no friends. This is a fact.
Doens't matter what we do, doesn't matter what we say, the world will always find reasons to blame Israel for this, for that...
A "Judenfrei" world is not a new idea. Since Amalek, this idea resists in the mind of humankind. If the State of Israel would be somewhere in Africa or Argentina, the conflicts would be the same. Even if jews would "immigrate" to the moon, and make finally a "Judenfrei" world, humankind would still find reasons to blame us for their problems on Earth.
The Westerns (Esav) understand well the language of Yishmael ("palestinians"), because both have the same goal.
Believe me, I'm not looking to defend Abbas, however since you are scrutinizing language, he said he refuses to accept an Israeli civilian presence. Does that necessarily mean "Jewish"? What if some of the Jewish towns in the West Bank agreed to remain and become "Palestinian" citizens?
ReplyDeleteIf we really ,really want to state th truth then hear the following. Neither the "Palestinians" nor the Palestinian-Israelis (Israeli Arabs) accept the idea of there being a Jewish State of any shape, manner or form. Their very presence endangers the survival of Israel. And the long-term strategic goal of Israel should be to resettle them in any one of their 22 Arab countries, and not to constantly consider which Jews need to be expelled next.
ReplyDeleteAll other solutions will just empower Arab residents of Israel to bleed the Jewish State.
Meanchem, under current PA "law" anyone of the Jewish religion is forbidden to purchase land or a domicile in their territory. (BTW I believe Jordan also has that same law)
ReplyDeleteThat's why the NK freaks who go for Shabbatons there every chance they get have to come back to Meah Shearim on Sunday morning.
Though I am highly cynical about Abbas, I am hoping against hope that his actions might prove more noble than his words. R' S. Boteach said this week judge a person by his actions - not his words. I agree. Lets see what happens. Expecting the worse. Hoping for something better than the worst.
ReplyDeleteAS a ps- not sure how much reliance you can place on the H'aretz article without seeing the actual Abbas quote. For example when he said he will not accept Israeli presence in Palestinian territory, I assume he was saying he will not accept Israeli settlements under Israeli sovereignty in PA, rather than saying that he will not alllow Jews to live in PA.
To Anonymous:
ReplyDeleteYes, we did take the land fair and square - they started a war with the openly stated goal of committing genocide against us and we successfully defended ourselves. They should be happy we didn't do to them what they planned to do to us.
To Aziz Ponim:
Abbas said that he wouldn't even accept the presence of Jews in a UN peace keeping force, i.e. if some random American or European soldier who was assigned to a West Bank UN peace keeping team that non-Israeli Jewish soldier would be forbidden from entering the PA state.
So clever and so false where it counts. Let me ask you...here's a possible deal, return of Arab refugees to Israel and no Jew leaves Palestine, the Arabs agree...is it a deal? When the Netanyahu government agrees to take in a million Arabs, every Kahanist living in some hilltop outpost need not move.It's the Israelis not the Arabs who would object.
ReplyDeleteWhat we have are opening positions, no more. But because we all know Israel will only accept a few Arabs if any, why should the Palestinians make the first concession? Think about it...since the large settlement blocks are to remain Israeli on everyone's view, the issue is about remote outposts, maybe 60,000 Jews, of which a certain number will leave of their own accord. Who wouldn't accept 60000 Jews for the right of unlimited Palestinian reabsorbtion into Israel? ej
Re: "respectful aziz ponim"
ReplyDeleteSome people will just believe anything to avoid the painful truth.
You said you want to judge people by actions. So forget all the words and look at what this evil man has already done to us. His Fatah henchmen were the ones murdering Jews, he coordinated many terror attacks on Jews, including the Olympic games where Israeli athletes were murdered, and he wrote a thesis denying the holocaust. The man is a terrorist nazi and a revolutionary with a suit and tie and western "credibility." His actions have already shown this. Now we know not to make much of what he says (especially in English) and we await further actions of a similar nature. What kind of actions are you waiting for and on what basis do you think they will happen? This is no time for wishful thinking and peace fantasies, but the messianic fanatical Israeli regime simple won't drop the illogical pipedream they've been shoving down our throats.
"
ReplyDeleteBut when Palestinians speak about their desire for the "Two State Solution," they mean something else entirely, as Abbas made clear today. See this article in Ha'Aretz, in which aside from refusing to recognize Israel as a Jewish state and insisting on the "right of return" for all Palestinians, he also refuses to accept "any Israeli presence, whether civilian or military, on the Palestinian territories."
So when Palestinians talk about a "Two State Solution," they mean one non-denominational state inhabited by Jews and Palestinians, and one Palestinian state inhabited solely by Palestinians."
If a Jew chose to live in Palestine, under Palestinian rule, he would be a Jewish Palestinian -- _not_ an Israeli. That kind of Jewish population in Palestine would be consistent with Abbas' words.
As often happens, you have been sloppy in distinguishing "Jew" from "Israeli". I don't think Abbas made the same mistake.
You're right, of course -- "Two State Solution" means different things to different people. _Agreeing_ on a definition is what the peace negotiations are about.
Charles Cohen
I don't believe that Abbas distinguishes between the two.
ReplyDeleteDF
ReplyDeleteWho says "most westerners believe a two state solution is the answer"? Most Americans certainly dont believe that - they prefer Israel with no Palestinean entity at all. And if you include Europeans as Westerners, then I daresay some of them - France, for example, or Scandinavians - believe exactly the opposite, that no Israel is the best solution. Others, like the Spaniards, would probably feel the same as the Americans.
In any event, even if one accepts poll data as accurate [when we know it is often wildly inaccurate and biased] no one has ever attempted tp poll all Westerner's view on the question.
DF