1. The Midrash (Bereishis Rabbah 63:10) describes Eisav as "ensnaring" or, "hunting" people "with his mouth." While the Midrash itself explains that in a metaphorical sense, perhaps it is also intended literally. Hunting people with one's mouth is what vampires do.It's an ingenious explanation, no? I'm not revealing where I saw this idea, because the interesting question to consider is this: How would your evaluation of this explanation differ depending on whether it was said by a thirteenth-century Rishon from Northern France, an eighteenth-century Acharon, a contemporary Gadol, or a regular Joe of today?
2. The Midrash Pirkei D'Rabbi Eliezer (Ch. 37) says that Eisav wanted to suck out Yaakov's blood:
אמר עשו איני הורג את יעקב בחצים ובקשת אלא בפי אני הורגו ומוצץ את דמו שנ' וירץ עשו לקראתו וישקהו אל תהי קורא וישקהו אלא וינשכהו
3. Why would Eisav trade his birthright for lentil soup? The "red, red stuff" was instead something more precious: blood!
4. The Midrash discusses how Yaakov "gave his life" for the birthright. But how is giving away lentil soup "giving one's life"? Rather, it means that he gave Eisav some of his blood.
5. When Eisav was reunited with Yaakov and "fell on his neck and kissed him", the word "kissed" has dots on it, which the Midrash explains to allude to the fact that Eisav tried to bite him. Who else would bite someone on the neck other than a vampire?
6. When Yaakov was struggling with Eisav's angel, the latter had to leave at daybreak. Why? Because vampires are harmed by daylight!
7. What did the angel mean when he says that Yaakov struggled "with God and with man" Which was it? Answer - it was with a vampire, which is immortal and thus has aspects of both God and man.
8. The Gemara (Sotah 13a) says that when Eisav tried to prevent Yaakov from being buried in Machpelah, Chushim Ben Dan killed him with a wooden stick and beheaded him. That is how you kill a vampire - with a wooden stake, and by beheading.
9. Vampires have hair on their palms, and Eisav had hair all over his body, including, most significantly, on his hands - HaYodayim y'dei Eisav.
10. Eisav was known as "the red one" and this may have been due to the color of his hair rather than his complexion. Red hair is traditionally a sign of vampirism.
11. Eisav's angel wrestled with Yaakov before he crossed the river. This was because Eisav's angel couldn't cross the river himself - vampires cannot cross running water.
12. According to the Gemara in Bava Kama, the category of damages of shen, "tooth," is learned from Eisav: "איך נחפשו עשו נבעו מצפוניו" (Ovadia 1). The Gemara understands this pasuk to refer to fangs.
13. According to Chazal, Eisav had attacked a young woman. This is typical behavior for vampires.
Finally, the reason given for why all this is not widely known, is that Jews are very sensitive about matters involving blood, due to blood libels.
(For the record: No, I do not believe that Eisav was a vampire!)
רבינו אברהם מסטוקר says this, no?
ReplyDeleteLol . . . My opinion would be the same regardless of who it was sourced to - great sense of humor, hope nobody takes them seriously.
ReplyDeleteIf it was said by someone in medieval times, I'll give him a pass. If it was said by anyone today, that person is either incredibly ignorant, incredibly naive, or out of his mind.
ReplyDeleteI have another proof! Vampires (or at least Dracula) have hair on their palms, and Eisav had hair all over his body, including, most significantly, on his hands!!!! (HaYodayim y'dei Eisav.)
ReplyDeleteI wasn't so sure before, but now that I have a stake in the theory (pun most definitely intended), I believe it!!!
The contrast between Akiva and Yehudah is curious.
ReplyDeleteFYI, Ismalic political artists depict Jews as Vampires sucking out the blood from the world. Ironically, they not only confused Ishmael with Issac, but Yaakov with Esav!
Isn't it a wee bit early for Purim Torah, laddie?
ReplyDeleteBesides, Eisav couldn't have been a vampire.
1) Yaakov Avinu kept all the mitzvos, we are told. Why was he cooking blood pudding (with real blood) when he and his brother were forbidden to eat it?
2) To get to Seir from Israel requires one to cross the Jordan River. Vampires cannot cross running water.
3) At the blessing incident, Eisav marches into Yitzchak's tent without so much as a by your leave. Vampires cannot enter a dwelling without first being invited.
4) The Eisav-Yaakov meeting at the beginning of Vayishlach took place during the day.
Eisv was a child of Hebrews parents. That settle it.
DeleteThis is turning into a fantastic B-movie plot:
ReplyDelete"Vampires VS. Werewolves"!
The Tanach indeed depicts a Binyamin-Amalek rivalry. Eisav was the grandfather of Amalek. And time and again it is Binyamin who is called to confront Amalek...
1. Ehud ben Gera "Hayimini" called to defend Israel from Amalek (Shoftim 3:15)
2. Shaul Hamelech, commanded to wipe out Amalek
3. Mordechai Hayehudi "Ish Yemini" facing Haman
Then there's the pasuk: "From Ephraim, their root with Amalek, after you is Binyamin, with your peoples." (Shoftim 5:14)
This seems to mean that after Ephraim takes a first crack at Amalek, it's Binyamin who goes after them for the final kill.
And here we are today, the seed of Amalek and Binyamin still among us, silently waiting in the shadows to once again engage in epic battle! Who will win in the end, the evil vampire or righteous werewolf? Stay tuned...
this is deff entertaining and the author id very creative but this creativity should be put to a better use , esav a vampire? come on get real.
ReplyDeleteI guess you don't believe in Giants or Satyrs either???
DeleteI have another proof! Vampires (or at least Dracula) have hair on their palms, and Eisav had hair all over his body, including, most significantly, on his hands!!!! (HaYodayim y'dei Eisav.)
ReplyDeleteWow, that's good! Yes, hairy palms are indeed part of the vampire legend.
my responses would be...
ReplyDeleteRishon: interesting!
Aḥaron: weird.
Gadol: uh....
Joe: ha, cute!
But David Meir has the best response.
A friend of mine in Yeshivah had the same theory. He would be thrilled if it turned out to be some Rishon.
ReplyDeleteGreat post!
If it was said by anyone contemporary during the month of February/March (presuming the anyone in question had a sense of humor), I would jump straight to Purim Torah. If it was said by anyone before that, I would presume they were grossly mistaken, no matter the credentials. But then again, you never needed to convince me of anything.
ReplyDeleteJust one thing, one of the reasons that you pointed out was that Eisav bit Yakov on the neck, and said who else does that? Well, Eisav wanted to kill Yakov. If he bit his neck, then he could have ruptured some important parts of his body. Just because he wanted to bite him on the neck does not mean that he is a vampire, it could mean that he wanted to rupture the passageway for Yakov's oxygen and kill him.
ReplyDeleteA kiss 💋, even a hard kiss on the neck was with the Hebrew culture, in the story of the prodigal son, The Father fell upon his son's neck. Also Jacob believes he wrestled with his God, and tells his brother, Seeing you is as Seeing The Face of God. New Testament says Yeshua Hamachiak aka Jesus Christ is The Face of God.
DeleteYou realize that I don't actually think that Eisav was a vampire, right?
ReplyDeleteStuff like this is why Tanach would make a good anime...midrashim are especially helpful.
ReplyDelete"You realize that I don't actually think that Eisav was a vampire, right?"
ReplyDeleteR' Slifkin, do you often get comments that you are condescending?
Maybe you don't but Pharoah was clearly a Time Lord.
ReplyDeleteThink about it: he appears first in Avraham's time, then Yosef's time, and then finally in Moshe's time, spanning centuries but there's enough evidence to suggest that people don't recognize him as the same person even though the Midrash tells us that he was. Clearly he had regenerated into a new appearance between episo... I mean, appearances.
I think Doctor Who may have been the Pharoah.
Delete"The following evidence was given:
ReplyDelete1. The Midrash (Bereishis Rabbah 63:10) describes Eisav as "ensnaring" or, "hunting" people "with his mouth." "
it's almost explicit in the passuk, which says that he hunted with/in his mouth. but that would include canines, felines, reptiles etc.; medrash tells us the victim: man, so that would include man eaters.
garnel said, "Yaakov Avinu kept all the mitzvos, we are told. Why was he cooking blood pudding (with real blood) when he and his brother were forbidden to eat it?"
if cooked blood is m'derabanan it wasn't forbidden yet, unless you hold like kofer bear in the video that yaakov kept d'rabanans.
but that's why Yaakov cooked it, to take off the d'oraisah.
BTW,kofer bear was also a vampire, so he said his vurt to get the other bear's brain to bleed. yummmm...;)
Glad my comment of the werewolf post is gaining traction. Keep up the great work, and love your new book!
ReplyDeleteI suppose we might as well ask, Did Yaakov cook his lentil soup with or without garlic?
ReplyDeletePlease don't tell me there's a Torah remez to a Slayer.
ReplyDeleteFor the benefit of the masses, let me reproduce here a discussion that took place about a week ago here on this blog.
ReplyDeleteLakewood Falling Down said...
My son wants to know if Eisav who was born with teeth, and was Binyamin's Uncle was also possibly a werewolf? He did bite Yaakov's neck!
December 22, 2011 2:46 AM
Lord Voldemort said...
My son wants to know if Eisav who was born with teeth, and was Binyamin's Uncle was also possibly a werewolf? He did bite Yaakov's neck!
No, Eisav was a vampire (obviously).
December 22, 2011 8:01 AM
Natan Slifkin said...
No, Eisav was a vampire (obviously).
I've actually heard people say that.
December 22, 2011 11:45 AM
Snape said...
>> No, Eisav was a vampire (obviously).
> I've actually heard people say that.
This is getting better and better!
So the red, red stuff -- not exactly lentil soup, was it?
December 22, 2011 5:33 PM
Yannai Segal said...
>> No, Eisav was a vampire (obviously).
> I've actually heard people say that.
This is getting better and better!
So the red, red stuff -- not exactly lentil soup, was it?
Heh, my 10-year old actually hypothisized this at the Shabbat table last week based on the evidence:
1) The neck biting
2) The red, red stuff
3) The fact that his angel had to flee before sunrise
4) Stereoypical vampires are also recognizable by thick luxurious hair (v-shaped widow's peak)
December 22, 2011 8:40 PM
Hey guys i have a proof. Esav was born with red hair. Red hair is a sign of a vampire
ReplyDeleteI just checked, and you're right! Good one!
ReplyDeleteYou realize that I don't actually think that Eisav was a vampire, right?
ReplyDeleteSo you think that Eisav was a literal flesh-and-blood human being indistinguishable from any homo sapien of today?
How would your evaluation of this explanation differ depending on whether it was said by a thirteenth-century Rishon from Northern France, an eighteenth-century Acharon, a contemporary Gadol, or a regular Joe of today?
ReplyDeleteRegular Joe - very creative, yesher koach!
Gadol - his handlers quoted something (from him and/or to him) out of context
Acharon - literary fiction
Rishon - must be a forgery
Hey guys, just stirred up another proof. The midrash relates to the unborn esav, saying that whenever rivka passed a place of avoda zara he was drawn to it.
ReplyDeleteWe know that vampires are unholy creatures.
This could possibly mean that since he was a vampire he was drawn to unholy places i.e avoda zara.
I have developed a shiur and source sheet on this exact subject; I don't believe anyone has mentioned yet that (Breishit 32:26) "וַיַּרְא, כִּי לֹא יָכֹל לוֹ, וַיִּגַּע, בְּכַף-יְרֵכוֹ" . "Vayiga" is commonly translated as "injured" however the shoresh also can mean "to taste"; the groin ('yerecho') is the second most popular place for vamps to bite, as the blood flows most freely from the femoral artery. I'd love to send you my source sheet if you're interested!
ReplyDelete"You realize that I don't actually think that Eisav was a vampire, right?"
Classic :)
Now, this is what one would call "Shteiging in Shtusim"...
ReplyDeleteIt's a good question.
ReplyDeleteIf it was a regular Joe, I would say that their books should be banned and they should be publicly vilified.
If it was a contemporary Godol, I don't see how the question is relevant as I don't know a single Godol (other than perhaps GH) that know what a vampire is.
If it was a 18th century Achron it could be considerd as Daas Torah, depending on if the Achron had any ties to the Hassidic movement.
If it was a 13th century Rishon who was also a rationalist, then we could still explain it by saying it was perfectly fine to believe in vampires when they lived.
But if it had been written by a bronze age tribesman living in the middle east during the second century, then I would accept it unquestioningly as the words of God.
Finding nothing on the connection between Eisav and garlic (except for a video of chef David Esau giving a tutorial about garlic), I resorted to this:
ReplyDeleteEsau, according to a kabbalistic teaching, is a reincarnation of Cain, and "that is why [Cain] killed his brother Abel with his mouth, as is known."
I guess it's known now.
"He bit him profusely, not knowing where his soul would leave him." (Zohar I:54b) (Sorry, I could not find this phrase on an online English translation of Zohar.)
ok, ok...enough.
ReplyDeleteCan you now, finally, confirm where you found this discussion?
וַיַּרְא, כִּי לֹא יָכֹל לוֹ
ReplyDeleteCouldn't see himself in the mirror...?
With all that's going on in the world, I love posts like this to keep the stress off. One of the best parts about posts like these is it exposes who has a sense of humor and who doesn't. I hate people who take themselves to seriously!
ReplyDeleteA request, as I am not s well versed as I should be. Is there anywhere in any scriptural source to show Hashem has a sense of humor?
We've had werewolves and vampires. Heaven forfend any of them sparkle.
ReplyDeletePlenty of Middle Eastern Jews historically believed in djinn. Many still do.
If you can fit Azathoth and Cthulhu in there somewhere I will publicly squee and start wearing a gartle and Borsalino.
But if you want a quintessentially Jewish story that includes an even more horrible monster and will break your heart you must read Uncle Chaim, Aunt Rivka and the Angel by one of my favorite Brooklyn Jews, Peter Beagle.
thirteenth-century Rishon from Northern France... lo zochisi lehovin devorov hakedoshim
ReplyDeletean eighteenth-century Acharon... a shevere zach to say
a contemporary Gadol... that is a godol ?
a regular Joe of today? ...get a life
I'm on Team JACOB!!!!! (even though binyamin was the werewolf, not Eisav :( )
ReplyDeleteLakewood Falling Down, may I recommend the following?
ReplyDeletehttp://academic.brooklyn.cuny.edu/economic/friedman/bibhumor.htm
Looking over this week's parsha, I realized that while it's certainly debatable whether Binyamin was a werewolf and Eisav was a vampire, it's pshat that both Yaakov and Yosef were The Mummy.
ReplyDeleteThere is a Pirkei D'Rabbi Eliezer (Ch. 37) which is perhaps of interest:
ReplyDeleteאמ' עשו איני הורג את יעקב בחצים ובקשת אלא בפי אני הורגו ומוצץ את דמו שנ' וירץ עשו לקראתו וישקהו אל תהי קורא וישקהו אלא וינשכהו
The above citation from Rafael should be moved up to the body of the post.
ReplyDeletelol - great post!
ReplyDeleteFor the next one can you somehow connect techiyas hamaysim to a zombie apocalypse? Ive been thinking about that one since my Walking Dead obsession
Rabbi,
ReplyDeleteI know there are important things going on in the world right now, but nu? My 10-year-old (inner and actual) is itching for more on this.
anyone else that we know of who was a vampire? how about a werewolf?
ReplyDeleteI blown away by the number of examples you were able to find...
ReplyDeleteEisav may have been permited to drink human blood even if he followed the not yet written Torah... I remember reading somewhere that Human blood is only Assur because of Maris Ayin (similar to fish blood). And that even the subject of human flesh is up for debate where it has been declared usser by ashkenaz but not decided for sephard... so watch out for your sephardic friends... if it doesnt taste like chicken it might not be.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, the whole topic of human blood and flesh would make a whole new interesting post I am sure,
Eisav may have been permited to drink human blood even if he followed the not yet written Torah... I remember reading somewhere that Human blood is only Assur because of Maris Ayin (similar to fish blood). And that even the subject of human flesh is up for debate where it has been declared usser by ashkenaz but not decided for sephard... so watch out for your sephardic friends... if it doesnt taste like chicken it might not be.
ReplyDeleteAnyways, the whole topic of human blood and flesh would make a whole new interesting post I am sure,
I found something about Cain and Hebel!
ReplyDeleteבשעה שהרג קין את הבל' לא היה יודע איך יוצאת נשמתו ממנו˙ נשך אותו
נשמתיה מיניה˙ נשיך ליה בשיניה כחויא (=אמר ר, יצחק: בוא וראה'
"אמר ר, יצחק: תא חזי' בשעתא דקטיל קין להבל לא הוה ידע היך נפיק
בספרד באותה תקופה' בראשית נד ע"ב:
במקרה שלנו נראה כי המקור לאיור זה הוא ממה שמצינו בזהר' שידוע היה
מבוססות על מסורות יהודיות שהועברו לאמנים הנוצרים מאת ר, משה [6]˙
בקשתו של אחד מאצילי ספרד' והתמונות בדרך כלל
לקסטיליינית מאת החכם היהודי ר, משה ארגל שעשה את מלאכתו על פי
מתחת לגרונו' והדם שותת מנשיכה זו˙ ...כתב יד זה כולל תרגום התנ"ך
http://www.biu.ac.il/JH/Parasha/bereshit/bereshith2.html
Pleace tell me the mekor of this, wath you wrote im wondering about it for years im serius thanks david
ReplyDeletekiefer sutherland in the lost boys.
ReplyDeleteplease im going serius tell me the mekor becouse i don´t belive you
Temujin will be busy for the next couple of days drawing up and sending technical specs to Chinese factories for wooden stakes with safety handles for the all-thumbs-bochurim who never wielded a hammer in teir lives, silver bullets (well, silver-plated is enough), garlic garlands and such. All available in a package including those geeky bug-checking goggles and the obsolete film strip light tables reborn as bug-checkers.
ReplyDeleteOne thanks Rabbi Slifkin for this excellent humorous piece. And look at the number of responses...hmm, chem trails, pyramid power, hollow earth, Anunaki, etc., would crank up the vistorship fer sure. A good reminder of how stringing together vague allusions and non-sequiturs and superimposing modern or foreign ideas onto them can lead one to all sorts of narrishkeit. There is a lesson in this.
Also, Eisav's angel was on the other side of the river; obviously, he couldn't cross running water.
ReplyDeleteA few more:
ReplyDelete1. According to the gemara in BK. The Av Nezekin of "Shen" is learned from Eisav.
"איך נחפשו עשו נבעו מצפוניו"
(Ovadia 1). The gemara undertands this pasuk to refer to fangs.
2. According to Chazal, Eisav had raped (And then killed?) a young maiden. Typically attributed to Vampires.
the earliest reference to vampires i'm aware of is in the sefer hachassidim though I don't believe there is a mention of Eisav there.
ReplyDeletealso, Eisav denied the resurrection of the dead. Propitious if he is of the 'undead'.
There are many opinions on how to kill a vampire. From _The Straight Dope_ column by Cecil Adams, ed. Ed Zotti, 16 July 1982:
ReplyDeleteSPECIES - COUNTRY - APPROVED METHOD OF DISPOSAL
Sampiro - Albania - Stake through heart
Nachtzehrer - Bavaria - Place coin in mouth, decapitate with ax
Ogoljen - Bohemia - Bury at crossroads
Krvoijac - Bulgaria - Chain to grave with wild roses
Kathakano - Crete - Boil head in vinegar
Brukalaco - Greece - Cut off and burn head
Vampir - Hungary - Stake through heart, nail through temples
Dearg-dul - Ireland - Pile stones on grave
Vryolakas - Macedonia - Pour boiling oil on, drive nail through navel
Upier - Poland - Bury face downwards
Gierach - Prussia - Put poppy seeds in grave
Strigoiul - Rumania - Remove heart, cut in two; garlic in mouth, nail in head
Vlkoslak - Serbia - Cut off toes, drive nail through neck
Neuntoter - Saxony - Lemon in mouth
Vampiro - Spain - No known remedy
----------------
ReplyDelete30 seconds of google yields this, from 1990.
----------------------------
Like the leech, Esau was a vampire. Once when he came in from the field from hunting, he was hungry. Unwilling to get one of the servants to fix a meal for him, he demanded some of Jacob’s lentils. Notice Esau’s words: "Let me have a swallow of the red, this red stuff" — therefore his name was called Edom (Red) (Gen. 25:30). Esau, you see, thought that Jacob was cooking blood. We can readily assume that as a hunter, Esau had often drunk blood in the field, in defiance of God’s command (Gen. 9:4).
Esau was a vampire man. He readily traded his birthright for what he thought was blood soup, but then wanted it back.
--------------------------------
The Pirkeo D'Drebbi Eliezer is the most important citation, almost (not quite) explicit. Makes perfect sense for the time and date of its composition.
Some great additions here! I will update the post.
ReplyDeleteGreat stuff!
ReplyDeleteHunters in many ancient cultures drank blood, Esav was an ancient hunter, vampires are based on ancient hunting legends ... therefore Esav is a vampire.
Anyway, if anyone is interested in reading about what Chazal meant by "hunting people", and the less sensational meaning of the verse in Ovadiah, may I recommend my blog on the Haftarot, "http://www.torahforum.org/haftara/?p=152 (in memory of my father, z"l)
Maybe it's the other way around. Maybe the vampire myth has its origins in the Midrash of PDR"E.
ReplyDeleteA friend sent me this article, and though I take it only in jest, it never hurts to look for a good gematria or two, so here's my offering:
ReplyDelete"Dracula" spelled דראקוללה exactly equals the gematria of Eisav (376), and both equal "כבערפד" - "as in a vampire".
And if I may wax homiletical, the silent "ayin" of Eisav (the silent letter, but also "eye") hints to a vampire being invisible in a mirror, the "sin" to his fangs, and the "vav" to the stake needed to kill him.
Finally, to answer Rav Natan's question: No, I wouldn't be totally shocked if some rishon had proposed that Eisav was a vampire; I'd only be shocked if the rishon wrote that Ya'akov would ward him off using a cross!
A friend sent me this article, and though I take it only in jest, it never hurts to look for a good gematria or two, so here's my offering:
ReplyDelete"Dracula" spelled דראקוללה exactly equals the gematria of Eisav (376), and both equal "כבערפד" - "as in a vampire".
And if I may wax homiletical, the silent "ayin" of Eisav (the silent letter, but also "eye") hints to a vampire being invisible in a mirror, the "sin" to his fangs, and the "vav" to the stake needed to kill him.
Finally, to answer Rav Natan's question: No, I wouldn't be totally shocked if some rishon had proposed that Eisav was a vampire; I'd only be shocked if the rishon wrote that Ya'akov would ward him off using a cross!
@Kira: Hunters in many ancient cultures drank blood, Esav was an ancient hunter, vampires are based on ancient hunting legends ... therefore Esav is a vampire.
ReplyDeleteA splendid point! Ancient hunters with simple projectile weapons and weak bows would only wound the animal and would have to follow it for hours and sometimes days over many miles before it weakened enough to be dispatched from up close. The tired, hungry and thirsty hunters would typically feast on the parts that spoiled rapidly; the blood and the organs. However, it was the pastoralists...such as the Masai and, ehem, the Mongols, who obtained blood as food from living animals through venesection and often by drinking directly from the opening. Temujin speculates that the vampire legend also owes its origins to the addition of cannibalistic practices, which are more common in environmentally stressed, protein-depleted societies. With the Fertile Crescent being an over-populated, seething maelstrom of cultures with various and often clashing means of production, a fusion of myths and fears could have given the rise to the legends of blood-drinking human cannibals. Temujin doesn't know enough though to speculate whether the references cited by Rabbi Slifkin and others could relate to such, or only appear related through cultural lenses of later European and Christian versions.
Robert K, would the addition of the hey and the use of the double lamed in דראקוללה be the standard or the only way of transliterating this Romanian, Latin-based word?
ReplyDelete"Vampire" is a great metaphor to the behavior of Esav and his offspring then and today. They don't literally "suck your blood" but they are metaphorically "bloodsuckers" in that sense.
ReplyDeleteI can't believe that this post seems to be taken seriously by otherwise rational people. Nonsense does not require elaboration or justification.
ReplyDeleteI believe it was also said, perhaps in the Midrash, about King David that from birth had hair all over his body and was a redhead.
ReplyDeleteTo answer your question, whether it was said by a thirteenth-century Rishon from Northern France, and an eighteenth-century Acharon, I would say their beliefs were as the rest of society of those days, primitive and ignorant.
As for a contemporary Gadol, he would have to show how holy and righteous he is, i.e. look everybody I hold from the Rishonim and the Acharonim, therefore I am on a higher level then the rest.
A Jew is obligated to learn Torah, which in my opinion does not mean to just gobble up everything every Rabbi had said, but rather to learn the Torah on your own initiative, do you own navigating. In light of this, for the regular Joe of today, I would advise him, stay away from the Gadolem.
The Gemara explains that with all rational and logic reasoning one can conclude that a rat is kosher. This post shows another example of how one can miscalculate.
Rationalism is needed for a rational outcome.
o
I'm sure everyone knows that vampire bats are real animals http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vampire_bat
ReplyDeleteAre they mentioned in the Torah? Also, isn't the concept of "human vampires" a more recent idea?
"I can't believe that this post seems to be taken seriously by otherwise rational people." -- Y Aharon, perhaps all these rationalist people are seeing the fun for what it's worth, and running with it.
ReplyDeleteI don't think it's so outlandish to say that if there were legends of blood drinking hunters during the time of Chazal, and Chazal (for whatever reason) wanted to portray Eisav as a vicious and terrifying figure, they would draw upon these legends to make their point midrashically. Quite fascinating actually.
ReplyDeleteY Aharon" "I can't believe that this post seems to be taken seriously by otherwise rational people." -- Y Aharon"
ReplyDeleteUnfortunately, myths are very serious whenever people believe in them...and eventually act on them... and the vampire legend is even more so, especially for Jews. Temujin didn't want to bring up this repulsive and saddening subject so close to the Sabbath, but one can only tiptoe around it for so long: the Blood Libels. Over almost the entire European subcontinent and for over half a millennium between the early thirteen hundreds and well into the eighteenth century individual Jews and entire Jewish communities stood to be accused, tortured, tried and executed or at robbed and expelled, if "fortunate" as misanthropic monsters who need Christian blood for ritual purposes and as medicine to alleviate "special" Jewish afflictions. Even the Papacy, which at times issued strong condemnations, was unable to stop this mania. By the time it was over, this mania left behind tens of thousands of victims and hundreds of written records and popular "documentaries" in the form of popular woodblock print illustrations of Jews and Jewish communities as a communities of vampires.
Temujin recommends Joshua Trachtenberg's classic, The Devil and the Jew: The Medieval Conception of the Jew and its Relation to Modern. Antisemitism. Written in the midst of the Second World War, the book was the first systematic treatment of the gradual demonization of the Jews of Europe and possibly the first one to link medieval fear and hatred of the Jew to its modernized versions leading to the Holocaust. One would caution that today we are no better off than in the Middle Ages; create a climate of belief and fear over "vampires" or "zombies" in popular culture and society will soon "find" culprits and the mania and profit motive to "do something about it."
Well, it's time, I think, for R' Natan to reveal who is the author of the vampire thesis that he cited. I have already given my assessment regardless of the antiquity of some source material. I should add, however, that biting and drinking blood does not, ipso facto, make for a vampire. Killing your opponent and drinking his blood is a very ancient pagan ploy. Such behavior remains today among some Arabs.
ReplyDeleteI note also that the vampire is depicted as Darth Maul of "The Phantom Menace" film in the Star Wars series. Maul, however, is not portrayed as a vampire in the film, and the film's title is appropriate for this subject.
Garnel Ironheart said...
ReplyDelete> Maybe you don't but Pharoah was clearly a Time Lord.
I don’t know about Pharoah, but I realized recently that Noach definitely was. How else do you explain how he traveled in a wooden box that was bigger on the inside.
As long as we're getting silly....So if I'm bitten by a vampire and then become one, to what extent am I still obligated by the halacha applicable to humans? (Or should we maybe table the issue till Purim?)
ReplyDeleteAs long as we're getting silly....So if I'm bitten by a vampire and then become one, to what extent am I still obligated by the halacha applicable to humans? (Or should we maybe table the issue till Purim?)
ReplyDeleteTwo issues I have: One, vampires are supposed to be pale, not red. Two, you kill a vampire by driving a stake through its heart, not beheading.
ReplyDeleteSrully, it seems that David Kornreich didn't take the trouble to invent an original moniker while spending much time and effort to attack R' Natan on his blog. There is also an inyan of geneivas daas involved - unless he simply forgot where the term originated.
ReplyDeleteAccording to the modern 'Shulchan Aruch', Wikipedia, vampires were considered to be 'ruddy' in ancient folklore. The depiction of pale vampires is, apparently, a more modern phenomenon. Similarly, the killing of a vampire could be effected by beheading as well as driving a stake through its heart - at least according to a 'yesh omrim'.
My prior comment on the waste of time involved in darshening this vampire business - even lightheartedly, would have been unnecessary if R' Natan had gone from Esav as a vampire to Binyamin as a werewolf (yes, there is a Rishon who actually makes that written conjecture). Then the progression would be from the strange to the absurd (akin to 'reductio ad absurdum'). Instead, he reversed the sequence.
My great grandfather was the Rav of the Transylvanian town of Segeshvaru.
ReplyDeleteGuess what! That is the birthplace of Count Vlad Dracul, the impaler!
All Jewish Vampires are invited to my tishes, at the Beis Medrosh of Chassidei Segeshvaru In Kiryas Motzetzkin.
Mohalim who perform MP are also warmly accepted to our special gathering and celebrations.
And remember that drinking human blood out of a person is not an Issur of Dam
Rabbi Slifkin
ReplyDeleteWe know Vampires are hard to find. See what Baba Kama
teaches us - Esau is hard to find just like Vampires.
Baba Kama 3b
How is Esau searched out - How are his hidden
places sought out.
Vampires are the living dead who eat blood. The Torah teaches us
there is life in blood. So the Torah knew Vampires need
blood to live. Also, Vampires who are evil eat blood. So the
Torah creates a fence, so we should not follow the practices
of the evil vampire and be like them.
Levit 17:4 For as to the life of all flesh, the blood thereof is
all one with the life thereof; therefore I said unto the
children of Israel: Ye shall eat the blood of no manner of
flesh; for the life of all flesh is the blood thereof; whosoever
eateth it shall be cut off.
I doubt the Rabbi will publish this.
ReplyDelete1) Rabbi sucking blood from circumcised boy's you know what. Also, what if Christians saw Jews do this in dark age Europe ?
2) Passover - the avenging angle seeking blood - door post need blood on them or else .
To answer your question, I think there should be a difference in reaction -- not because the idea becomes more correct if a rishon said it but because we owe the rishonim a certain respect that we don't owe your regular Joe Shmoe. So, yes, the idea is weird, nonsense no matter who said it. But if R' Nachman said it, I would use more respectful language simply because he is R' Nachman. (Not that we shouldn't be respectful of everyone, but there are gradations.)
ReplyDeleteI just did a quick google search, and found that there are really people today who drink human blood!!!
ReplyDeleteAs a side point, some of the commentators don't realize that many people brought up in the Bais Yaakov/Yeshiva system would readily believe this theory if one of their teachers taught it to them. I myself would have up until recently. If you think about it, it's not any more unusual than all the other magical things brought down in the Torah.
The photo depicts the vampire with lateral incisors as fangs instead of the more traditional canines as fangs.
ReplyDeleteThat's a PHOTO???? Wow! Where does this individual live???? Natan -- please replace this disturbing post with something about a cuddly, furry, feel-good animal and its place in Tanakh. Any koalas in the Bible????
DeleteLOL, the perfect motzaei Shabbat read.
ReplyDeleteBut...
You're touching on a serious issue...Chazal's demonization of Esau.
I heard an interesting dvar Torah once in which the speaker said that the Tanakh's two posterchildren for ADD/ADHD are Esau and David (who happen to be the only two personalities explicitly referred to as having ruddy complexions/being redheads). Esau, the man of the field (as opposed to his twin brother Jacob, the quiet man who dwelt in tents), is all restless action. The story of him, the lentil pottage & selling his birthright is very telling, ADD/ADHD-wise. Esau says, "'Behold, I am at the point to die; and what profit shall the birthright do to me?'" He was not about to die. Exaggeration & the use of superlatives in speech is characteristic of ADD/ADHD. Esau shows no regard for the future & is focused solely on gratifying his (exaggerated) need of the moment. Genesis 25:34 ("and he did eat and drink, and rose up, and went his way. So Esau despised his birthright") loses something in the translation. In Hebrew, the five verbs here immediately follow eachother ("...vayachal, vayesht, vayakom, vayalech vayabez..."). Esau ate and drank until he was satiated, then rose and left. He was all verbs. It hit me a while back that his threat to kill Jacob (two chapters later) may have been/probably was his ADD/ADHD-typical florid speech, which he did not mean literally, but which Rebecca took literally, with all the fateful consequences. Our Sages, in the midrashic literature, love to come down on and demonize Esau (none of which is in the pshat; I find it interesting that the Shomronim have no such tradition of demonizing Esau & see him altogether differently, as a noble character.). I wonder if the obvious rabbinical animus toward Esau is no more than the inability of our Sages, who were themselves quiet men who dwelled in tents, to understand this "man of the field."
Interesting question at the end, but it may be based on a false premise. Sure, today's Gedoilim are quiet men who dwell in tents and don't understand the man of the field. But that wasn't always the case, and it's certainly not true of much of chazal, who were quite the movers and shakers. Some, like Resh Lakish, were even into extreme sports.
DeleteMost of the "rules" you cite about vampires are basically 19th century (if not later) literary inventions. I'm not even sure the idea of vampires existed before then.
ReplyDeleteCompelling idea.
ReplyDeleteKudos to you Rabbi Slifkin - I was surprised you published my comments. I want to share some of my history with you. When I was a young yeshiva bochur there was a chaver of miine with which I had a competition with. We would each seek the name of an obscure animal and try to stump each other. This went on for years. This was before the internet. Like me I suspect you have a great love of animals. I am an old man now and this love of animals has never left me.
ReplyDeleteafter 3 years, I think you can tell us, who said esau was a vampire?
ReplyDeleteIt was stam some guy on the internet!
Deleteyou had me fooled. I thought you were going to come up with another bombshell!
ReplyDeleteI thought vampires had black hair. Lol
ReplyDelete