I couldn't understand is how Rav Moshe could simultaneously try to absolve himself of all responsibility and let his disciple take all the blame. The rabbi that I met with yesterday agreed with me on that point, but he opined that ordering the vigilante action was not necessarily wrong. He told me that, according to the information that reached him, the elderly woman was indeed involved in terrible actions with children. I agreed that there isn't necessarily a problem with a child abuser being stopped in such a way - if they are indeed guilty, and if there is indeed no other way to stop them.
However, in two superb articles in Tablet magazine, Menachem Kaiser had argued that the whole thing was not credible, just like the stories from the 1980s about satanic abuse cults. While there are certainly pedophiles in Jerusalem, the notion of a secret cultic ring is the result of mass hysteria. It is true that many highly intelligent people in Jerusalem - not just Rav Moshe Shapiro, but other prestigious and more humble and cool-headed figures - were convinced that the ring was real. Yet experts with training in this field disagreed.
The bombshell came yesterday afternoon. The Israel Police announced that after a lengthy investigation, they had discovered that the "secret abuse ring" was fabricated by three people as a way to make money. They had conspired to spread rumors of a terrible threat in order to solicit funds for an organization to fight this fictitious threat. There was indeed a conspiracy - but not the one that people had feared. (News article in English here - more extensive article in Hebrew here.) It's wonderful news for the thousands of people in Jerusalem who were terrified about this ring (though many of them doubtless maintain that these arrests are all part of the conspiracy). But it's tragic that the trail of carnage caused a woman to be beaten near to death, a suspect to commit suicide, and who knows what else.
What is the lesson to take from this story? I think one lesson to take is that there is a reason why we have a justice system. No, the system is not perfect, indeed it is far from perfect. But nor are decisions taken by individuals, no matter how brilliant they are. There's no replacement for a systematic investigation, which includes consultation with experts in the field. It's just as Winston Churchill said about democracy - “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”
The lesson, unfortunately, is that the ignorance - and of course kneejerk anti-goy/anti-state prejudice in large swathes of the Haredi community is commonplace.
ReplyDeleteSexual abuse, vigilantism and out-and-out regression barely differentiates the community from the rest of society.
Was also reading today of 2 shomrim who beat a homosexual and now want to determine their own moderate punishment!
http://nypost.com/2016/08/09/hasidic-hate-crime-attackers-trying-to-finagle-better-plea-deal/
Sick of the high mindedness of these so called Rabbonim.
In the case you linked to, I blame the Brooklyn DA's office rather than the Rabbis. It has looked the other way here and under the current DA's predecessor -- for decades.
DeleteI blame the Brooklyn DA's office rather than the Rabbis.
DeleteThe DA's office is responding to political pressure, as this is an elected office. If the pressure from the community via the Rabbis was to get these people off the street, there would be a different result.
Doesn't matter. The DA needs to prosecute objectively and not bow to political pressure. That is his job. It would be nice if the rabbis and/or community were supportive of his doing his job correctly, but even if they are not, he still has a responsibility to do his job ethically.
DeleteI don't see how that gets the Rabbis off the hook.
DeleteThe lesson is that people whose parnassa depends upon scaring people must always be looked at very skeptically. Left wing, Right wing. Amudim, Project YES, the ADL. Makes absolutely no difference. All these groups are the special interest of one or more wealthy funders. They hire people whose sole job is to convince the public that the interest of their funder should be YOUR interest, too. So you have scare mongering organizations trying to convince you there anti-semites lurking behind every corner, rebbi-perverts in every classroom, "abuse" (in its infinite variations) occurring everywhere, etc etc etc. Maybe some of it is true, sure. But its like the boy who cried wolf. I just don't believe any of it anymore.
ReplyDeleteMaybe some of it is true, sure. [...] I just don't believe any of it anymore.
DeleteJust about sums it up.
It only takes a few abusers within a community to wreak havoc. They position themselves to maximize their opportunities. There doesn't have to be one in every classroom and no one claims this. (And if you can find someone who claims this, then you can disbelieve them without disbelieving in proven phenomena).
Set aside the various "special interest groups". We know they exist because they've been exposed in multiple places including, not surprisingly, Jewish institutions (e.g YU, NCSY and TA in Baltimore) after having abused many children while the authorities looked the other way. Pogrow is the latest I've heard of, but then again, I think that you've expressed the opinion that you don't believe he is guilty of child abuse.
The real lesson is not to believe in conspiracy theories and and to take seriously accusations of abuse in your own community instead of executing vigilante justice against outsiders (or insiders for that matter).
"I think that you've expressed the opinion that you don't believe [Pogrow] is guilty of child abuse."
DeleteI never said any such thing, and by making such a claim you are damaging your credibility. Precisely the opposite. I said we don't know if he's guilty or not.
In any event, the lesson here, as you say, is be careful before you believe anything. As R. Slifkin can attest, there's a world of sheker out there. Sheker is used to support all sorts of causes. Supporters always think their own causes are just and noble. Persecuting Rebbeim is as sacred in some people's eyes as is attacking Apikorsim in the eyes of others. Catholics and Protestants, Religious Jews and Atheists. Not a one will hesitate to lie or invent "studies" and statistics in support of their holy mission.
In any event, the lesson here, as you say, is be careful before you believe anything.
DeleteUnfortunately, this is a meaningless statement and can be used to justify any position. You just become very skeptical of things that don't fit your worldview and accept the opposite. E.g., disbelieve accusations of abuse by A, because you imagine the existence of straw-man organization O claiming "rebbi-perverts in every classroom". As in "Maybe some of it is true, sure. But its like the boy who cried wolf. I just don't believe any of it anymore."
I never said any such thing, and by making such a claim you are damaging your credibility. Precisely the opposite. I said we don't know if he's guilty or not.
I have no idea what is in your mind, but you said here that those characterizing the P'sak against that Pogrow as alleging abuse were "a blatantly false misrepresentation of what the psak din actually says". If abuse was not even alleged by the Beis Din investigating his conduct, why would we even imagine that there was abuse?
Moreover, there comes a point where "don't know" is itself tendentious. Are we still not sure if OJ was guilty?
The lesson is not to be skeptical of everything. It is to be skeptical of that which is not evidence, and give due credence to that which is evidence. When A says: "B abused me", that is something that deserves some credence. When C says "B is a great man and could never do that" that deserves little credence.
Alternatively, Sanatic Ritual Abuse rings has never been shown to exist, so reports should be viewed skeptically; child abuse has been shown to exist in surprising places, so reports should be given more credence.
I have no idea what you're trying to say. If A accuses B of abusing him, he is no more entitled to credence than B is when B denies it. In other words, we don't know if B is guilty or not. Not complicated.
DeleteThat's not what I wrote. Here is it again:
DeleteWhen A says: "B abused me", that is something that deserves some credence. When C says "B is a great man and could never do that" that deserves little credence.
That is what happens in real life. The people in charge don't even bother to talk to A or A's family because they "know" that B is a nice person and "could not" have done it. Or they start tell stories about how A or A's family is unstable. Or else they say something along the lines of "these things are overblown by the by PC police and their allies to so I don't believe any of them" as you and some others here have done.
If A accuses B of abusing him, he is no more entitled to credence than B is when B denies it. In other words, we don't know if B is guilty or not. Not complicated.
Of course this is completely wrong.
1) You have to actually look into what A and B say to assess credibility.
2) You have to look to see if there is an A2 or A3 as well. When these cases are eventually revealed there are almost always a string of victims, but nobody bothered to look.
3) Often there is an A2 or A3 already, but the excuses given above are used to serially ignore them (a sort of perverse Maavir Rishon, Rishon).
4) If we are truly left with "I can't tell if this is person is child sex abuser or not", then they can't left be around children. Or even if we don't know what happened, but they violated policies such as taking children alone to a private area, they have to be let go. Child said/Adult said is a starting point, not a conclusion.
5) What this has anything to do with somebody like Pogrow is beyond me.
If you read the article it is far from clear that this is in any way credible, as it seems to be a ludicrous claim by the police.
ReplyDeleteNot when placed in the context of the countless reported abuse, fraud and vigilantism cases that are now commonplace in the Haredi communities in the US and Israel.
DeleteWhat is the lesson to take from this story? I think one lesson to take is that there is a reason why we have a justice system. No, the system is not perfect, indeed it is far from perfect. But nor are decisions taken by individuals, no matter how brilliant they are. There's no replacement for a systematic investigation, which includes consultation with experts in the field. It's just as Winston Churchill said about democracy - “Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others.”
ReplyDeleteSorta. Taking the law into your own hands is wrong. So I can't agree with this:
I agreed that there isn't necessarily have a problem with a child abuser being stopped in such a way - if they are indeed guilty, and if there is indeed no other way to stop them.
You don't need to beat a child abuser to stop them. Calling them out as abusers and keep them away from children, provide support to victims who come forward and bring what you have to the authorities. If we always did that, then we would be in much better shape.
Conversely, simply relying on the authorities is also ineffective. When people make accusations, they have to be taken seriously and people who run institutions with children have to follow up after the police investigation and not equate "don't have a case beyond a reasonable doubt" with "should be interacting with children".
But all this is about serious claims of abuse by victims, not conspiracy theories about ritual abuse rings as we have here, as you correctly point out.
Good thing the Rav didn't mention those Second Amendment people dealing with the alleged ring leader.
ReplyDeleteAlso a nice case of how gedolim can also be mislead.
It seems to be easy to mislead them. Especially in monetary matters. Or their own leadership matters. All you need is the right 'askan' advisor lobbyist for that particular 'godol'. And they seem to not want to change their individual system.
Delete"I agreed that there isn't necessarily have a problem with a child abuser being stopped in such a way - if they are indeed guilty, and if there is indeed no other way to stop them." Really? This not how civil society function. And as your article shows, there's no way for an individual, other than the victims themselves to know this.
ReplyDelete+1.
Delete". . . and if there is indeed no other way to stop them." ???????
The rabbi never heard of policemen? Of prosecutors? Of Israeli state courts?
He had good evidence that all of those were so corrupt that there was no alternative to "vigilante justice" (= no justice, in this case) ?
" I think one lesson to take is that there is a reason why we have a justice system."
This lesson was learned a long time ago. As I remember it, one of the "Noahide laws" is that a society should establish a justice system -- courts and laws, not mobs and rumors.
Once in a while, the Old Ones got it right.
Unfortunately, the discovery of extortion does not negate the possibility of a functioning pedophile ring. Further, stating it so definitively seems a bit suspicious.....without elaborating, I know for a fact that this ring exists. It's terrifying and depressing for the kids still involved, and there are many. I pray every day for them.
ReplyDeleteYou know for a fact, but you don't go to the police with your evidence? I think it's pretty clear that your definition of "fact" is, in fact, "opinion".
DeleteIf you "know for a fact" that this ring exists, why haven't you gone to the police to report your findings?
DeleteAnd why post as anonymous and why not provide any details of your knowledge. That's exactly the tactics used by those arrested.
We're tired of your tactics.
(And for the record: I do believe there are child molesters around - in all neighbourhoods over the entire religious spectrum.)
I know for a fact that the person who posted this is actually a ghost. Just because you haven't seen him doesn't mean he doesn't exist.
DeleteCan I assume you're part of the ring then? Because if you really know it "for a fact" you'd have the ability to help bust it.
DeleteRM
If you have evidence for such a ring, you need to be talking to the police rather than anonymously posting unconfirmed rumors on the internet.
DeleteHow do you know for a fact that it exists? Did you see said abuse? If so, do you have a police report stating that you saw said abuse?
DeleteWith details under gag order, we can't really know the full story, can we?
DeleteYour article doesn't differentiate clearly enough between two child abuse allegations, one in Nachala'ot and one in Sanhedria. The police report only appertains to the Sanhedria issue, not the early Nachala'ot one in which Rav Shapiro was involved.
ReplyDeleteAs much as I appreciate the level of intellectual honesty of this blog, this particular article is incomplete. There isn't a ring of cult members- there are many people with access to children that have gotten involved in organized crime, in exchange for money (ex.all their debts being paid off), or under threat of terrible slander (with pictures) and loss of jobs/reputation. There is a group making child pornography with very disturbing themes/scenarios that resemble classic satanism. They have sought out these middle men (and women) to deliver kids for short periods of time.
ReplyDeleteSo far, whatever middle men have been caught have taken the fall themselves so it all appears isolated (assumedly this is part of the deal) but the initiative continues. The institutions and the community they serve act as a complete stonewall to the police, media, and revacha instinctively. Rabbanim are directing parents of children exhibiting shocking behaviors to unqualified therapists within the community who are not acting as mandated reporters. Lots and lots of testimony and evidence is being erased in this manner.
An unsuccessful investigation is evidence of either a) false claims or b) people who cover themselves well. In this case it is the latter. Plus, they weren't looking for middlemen in a mafia-type situation, they were looking for a cult. Of course they didn't find that. The damage to the children is the same.
Organized crime is a growing source of income in the chareidi world, for obvious reasons like a crushing poverty cycle and shame associated with men getting out of the cycle in any upright manner (like academic degrees or army service). They would lose all esteem, job opportunities in their only field (Torah teaching) and their only consistent source of income (tsedakah) if they take those routes. What's left besides suicide or homelessness? If they have family money they haven't reached this point yet. But many, many have. And they work as assistants in chedarim, tender melavehs, gan assistants or visiting instructors that go from institution to institution. There are no background checks or minimum qualifications for these positions. The children are taught to trust people dressed this way completely. If you're wondering why the children haven't spoken- many have. But many are ignored, or ignored after their parents ask a shaila about whether to listen, or sent to the 'therapist' if the first two aren't enough to shut them up for life.
Oh, come on.
DeleteI hear UFOs are involved too.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_ritual_abuse
DeleteThe US already went through a period of this nonsense 25-30 years ago. To echo many other posters, if you have real evidence, bring it to the police, not this blog.
Nonsense from Anonymous, Rabbis should be considered as professionals who need to be regulated. Just like lawyers and physicians. Rabbi Slfkin is providing evidence that Rabbis believe they are above the law. If Torah was enough to regulate Rabbis, there would be ethical behaviour but there isn't. There needs to be an explicit code of ethics and discipline commensurate with violations. This is out of control.
DeleteI assumed all of this about a year ago when a prominent rabbi told me that his own grandchildren had been thus abused and asked me what I thought. When it comes to sex, human imagination is absolutely insane.
ReplyDeleteThis is not the first time a leader wisely asked his obsequious followers who will rid me of this troublesome priest. Vhameivin Yavin
ReplyDeleteHi, I am pretty sure the fabrication was specifically referring to the claims of a satanic ring in Sanhedria, not the one in Nachlaot. There was no satanic cult ring in Nachlaot, but there was widespread child abuse and 3 people were sentenced and one committed suicide. The women who was beaten was not directly involved in the child abuse but was personally connected to one of the perpetrators who used her premises to conduct the abuse, it is not certain whether or not she was aware of what was taking place.
ReplyDeleteJust by the way, I know the people who beat her, they are not followers or students of Rav Moshe Shapiro, but they were acting on his command, if that makes any difference.
Sammy
Oh, they used her imaginary basement under where she lives, but she was unaware that it was being used?? And what about the imaginary stories of the children that certainly said she was a part of it in her imaginary basement.
DeleteGlad to see you keep such good company. They did not just beat her, they left her for dead. Otherwise, why did he that shall not be named take off his face mask. Only reason that she did not die was that a neighbor went to check up on her shortly after they left her for dead!!!
And by the way, the one that was found hanging in his apt. forgot to light his Chanuka candles which he had prepared to light before he did himself in.
The only reason it was officially claimed a suicide was because they found no signs of a struggle. Most people that are close to the situation thought it more likely a murder. And he was buried in a regular cemetery. Not one reserved for people that take their own lives.
I saw the story and connected them in my mind, but didn't realize they were actually the same story.
ReplyDeleteAnd to echo those above, no, it is never proper to take the law into your own hands. That way lies anarchy and mob violence- and, of course, innocents being punished.
One can't help but wonder if the scammers were taking advantage of their knowledge that their victims would not go to the police, either over the supposed abuse or over the scam itself.
I don't understand. The article and police indictment refer only to an alleged ring operating in Sanhedria. The woman who was beaten was accused of operating a ring in Nachlaot, a completely separate matter. Any connection between the two incidents is pure speculation. It seems that once again you are merely scouting for any opportunity, no matter how scurrilous or petty, to publicly discredit anyone who opposed your books twelve years ago.
ReplyDeleteWalter Tilburg Clark's "The Ox-Bow Incident" (see http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/46212.The_Ox_Bow_Incident) comes to Judaism.
ReplyDeleteוְכָשְׁלוּ אִישׁ-בְּאָחִיו כְּמִפְּנֵי-חֶרֶב, וְרֹדֵף אָיִן
ReplyDeleteR' Natan, it seems to me that you need to either correct your post or to present evidence that it is correct. All the other accounts that I have read including those to which you linked mention the current indictment of 2 men and a woman in connection with rumors that they started about a supposed pedophile/missionary ring in Sanhedria Hamurchevet in order to obtain funds to allegedly combat them or treat the supposed victims. While this scam may have been a take off from the earlier Nachlaot case, it is not the same. The Hebrew version of the story in Behadrei Hareidim (bhol) and Daattorah is more extensive, but my Ivrit is not adequate to translate all the words and to grasp all the nuances. An English translation would be helpful. Do you have information to back your claim? Meanwhile your version is being repeated on Frum Watch.
ReplyDeleteY. Aharon
To echo Anonymous' comments from above...
ReplyDelete"It seems that once again you are merely scouting for any opportunity, no matter how scurrilous or petty, to publicly discredit anyone who opposed your books twelve years ago."
In the interest of full disclosure, let's make clear to all readers that Rav Moshe Shapiro strongly opposed the Slifkin books. Do with that info as you wish.
Of course. That was the main part of discussion in my previous post on this topic. Rav Moshe endorsed a sefer calling for my execution. That's why I am particularly interested in this case.
DeleteI am shocked. That is frightening and perhaps should be reported to the police. The dangers of unreasonable beliefs.
DeleteOf course, you can spin things any way ypu like, but the patently dishonest assertion that Rav Moshe wants you murdered is way beyond the pale of any civilized discourse.
DeleteI didn't assert that he wants me murdered. That is a patently dishonest spin on your part.
DeleteKnowing the guys who beat the "supposed " 70 year old leader of the ring personally and having been following the developments, indictments, sentencing and these recent arrest very closely (we live in Nachlaot) there is no doubt that many, MANY kids were molested for whatever personal interest of thw perpetrators (financial gain by creating child ponography, sexual satisfaction or sick fetishism ) many of the kids did actually go forward to the police and file complaints, majority of matched eachothers description, but due to the young age of the kids, and the parents prior to going to the police discussing it with the victims helping them express themselves, the police considered that witness tampering and classed loads of victims evidence as not suitable for a court of law. Now, were there caves, tunnels, churches with pigs slaughtering taking place ? Who knows, but many, MANY young innocent kids who grew up with no exposure to such ideas or happenings, shared the same story.
ReplyDeleteOne of the people sentenced to prison for taking the law into his own hands and beating the 70 year old lady, has 7 kids of which 6 were molested and attended therapy at one of the recently arrested certified therapist who due to the low financial status of the family, rather then charging, raised the money for them. Lovely people well known in the neighbourhood! I could go on and on, but it's pointless with some very biased well written people spewing there hate all over the Internet and trying to cover the happenings up.
Many of the pedophiles and victims moved out of Nachlaot once this whole story blew up with many of them settling in sanhedria meuchevet.. hence the connection..
It's a messy story,and the only thing that can help,is teaching your child to keep away from strangers and exposing them to the dangers..
Yeah, who knows if all those tunnels and caves really exist.
DeleteMy goodness, people are mad. I found this out in the discussion threads on the Nachalaot case, but boy, people are still barking mad.
That there is widespread child abuse in many charedi areas is no childish. Anything else though...
DeleteIf you have truly been following everything as you say, could you please explain to me why why the children that were accepted as valid testimonies is court are so ludicrous. I mean really, can someone really have sexual gratification from watching movies naked and handing out candies with only his shoes on. And by the way, the fact that many of the children all have the same weird story that they should have no idea about points strongly to a similar episode in history in the 1980s in which all the perpetrators of the terribly acts that were supposedly committed were eventually found not guilty. There too, many children from different parts of the usa all told the same bizarre stories.
Deletenekama and bizuy of a talmid chacham. I wonder if we would say ein issur chal al issur regarding this article. Either way you sure are making god proud especially right before tisha baav.
ReplyDeleteDo you think that the video of Rav Moshe should be suppressed? Does it make you deeply uncomfortable? Do you think that people should not know this very significant aspect of him, and should continue to view him as near-infallible?
DeleteTorah is a sam hamavet for R. Shapirah. Its absolutely assur to do what he did. The Kavod has gone to his head. Sad.
DeleteYou know what they say 'one man's talmid chochom is another man's.....'
ReplyDeleteוְאָשִׁיבָה שֹׁפְטַיִךְ כְּבָרִאשֹׁנָה
ReplyDeleteוְיֹעֲצַיִךְ כְּבַתְּחִלָּה
אַחֲרֵי כֵן
יִקָּרֵא לָךְ עִיר הַצֶּדֶק
קִרְיָה נֶאֱמָנָה
See http://www.bhol.co.il/mobile/article_en.aspx?id=107139 for extensive coverage in English. And it shows that the Nachlaot and Sanhedria cases ARE connected.
ReplyDeleteAnd here is a comment that appeared a year ago at the Daas Torah blog (http://daattorah.blogspot.com/2015/03/satanic-child-abuse-is-there-ring-of.html):
ReplyDeleteRegarding the allegations about a Satanic Ritual Child Abuse Ring in Sanhedria, the same individual who spread the rumors about the alleged Satanic Ritual Child Abuse Ring in Nachlaot are also involved in spreading the rumors about Sanhedria. Not only that, they also say that what is occurring in Sanhedria is a continuation of the activities of the same organization that allegedly operated in Nachlaot.
Below (in Hebrew) is an excerpt of what someone who calls himself "Sheleg" ("Snow") posted on the rotter.net website at :http://rotter.name/kolot/prime...
Note that the date of this posting by "Sheleg" was September 17, 2013. That was almost two years ago. Thus, the effort to spread rumors about ritual child abuse in Sanhedria is therefore not something new, but it was already something being publicized on the public forum rotter.net at that time. Therefore it is not accurate to say that the allegations about Satanic Ritual Child Abuse were not being made publicly until a few weeks ago.
It is important to emphasize that the same "Sheleg" who posted about Sanhedria, has also published extensive, lengthy articles about the alleged Nachlaot Satanic Ritual Child Abuse Ring on the rotter.net website. He "proves" the existence of the Satanic Ritual Child Abuse Rings in Nachlaot and elsewhere, based on
"expert" articles about the Day Care Center Ritual Abuse which was alleged to occur in the United States during the 1980s. Since that time, those "expert" articles have since been debunked because it was found out that the accusations of Ritual Abuse were invariablly found to be false. In retrospect, the mainstream experts have come to agree that the Ritual Abuse in the 1980s did not occur. Not only that, there has never been solid evidence of any existence of Ritual Abuse anywhere.
שלג
חבר מתאריך 20.6.12
851 הודעות אור ליום רביעי י''ד בתשרי תשע''ד 22:01 17.09.13
לחץ לשליחת EMail למשתמש לחץ לשליחת הודעה פרטית למשתמש לחץ להצגת פרופיל המשתמשלחץ להוספת משתמש זה לרשימת החברים שלך עבור לצ'אט
1. זעזוע עמוק בירושלים
בתגובה להודעה מספר 0
התברר כי הפגיעות שאירעו בשכונת סנהדריה כללו עשרות רבות של ילדים חרדים, נקיים וטהורים.
בנוסף לפגיעות בתחום הצניעות, היו גם מעשים סדיסטיים באמצעות בעלי חיים, והטפות הזרות ליהדות.
כפי שחששו, נראה כי מדובר בהמשך פעילותו של ארגון הפשע הנוצרי שפעל בנחלאות בשיתוף פוגעים יהודיים, והפועל בשיטת RITUAL ABUSE, לאמור: פגיעות שמטרתם שטיפת מוח.
על אירועי נחלאות והשיטה, ראה כאן:
http://rotter.name/kolot/prime...
http://rotter.name/kolot/prime...
http://rotter.name/kolot/prime...
ההורים מאשימים את מחוסרי האחריות, שבעבור שיקולים זרים ואינטרסנטים מנעו את התארגנות הציבור בעוד מועד.
וכפי שהתבטא אחד המעורבים בפרשה: "פשע האחריות הישירה על שפך דם עשרות רבות של נשמות, שהועברו לקלון, לעבודה זרה, ולייסורי גוף ונפש נוראיים, תרדוף את האנשים האלו ותוקיע אותם בעולם הזה ובעולם הבא. ידיכם שפכו את הדם הזה, איך הם לא רועדות".
אחד הגורמים ציין את דברי הפסוק במשלי (כד כד): "אומר לרשע צדיק אתה - יקבוהו עמים יזעמוהו לאומים", ויעויין בגר"א שם.
ההורים בירושלים נקראים לשמור מאוד ובכל עת על ילדיהם, ולשים לב לכל פעילות חשודה. בכל מקרה של חשד ואירוע, יש להעביר את המידע לרבנים שבשכונתכם, ולרכז מידע במידת האפשר.
"The rabbi that I met with yesterday agreed with me on that point, but he opined that ordering the vigilante action was not necessarily wrong. He told me that, according to the information that reached him, the elderly woman was indeed involved in terrible actions with children." The information I received is that this esteemed Rabbi listened to Motzei Shem Ra and is no longer considered an esteemed Rabbi.
ReplyDelete1) Is not some sort trial needed per halacha before action can be taken ?
ReplyDelete2) All people, including ancient or modern Israelites were and are not immune to rumor and rumor mongering. This why critical thinking skills and evidence based decisions are so important.
If my name was public - should I be concerned about my physical safety from 'Orthodox Jews' ?
ReplyDeleteJust to clarify on my earlier post, the 70 year old lady that was badly and illegally beaten, is a known person in the missionary scene and had quite some uncomfortable run ins with Orthodox jews in America before she supposedly converted and moved to Israel.. She might be completely innocent, but there's LOTS of smoke around her..
ReplyDeletewhy is there no mention that Dr. Joy Silberg phd.,a prominent expert on child abuse in baltimore DOES believe that this pedophile ring exists in sanhedria murchevet? what about Dr. Danny brom phd. ,expert on trauma in jerusalem? both stand behind the arrested therapist!
ReplyDeleteI wrote to Dr. Silberg and she denies that she has seen any evidence for a satanic abuse ring or that abuse is done in Jerusalem because of any ideology. In short, what you say is not true.
DeleteAll Dr. Silberg told you was that the perpetrators in the current situation show no evidence of being a cult or some other ideologically motivated group. Nevertheless, Dr. Silberg has done extensive research and evaluation of the victims in this case, and unequivocally states that they are suffering from trauma that must have been caused by actual rape and torture. Based on her experience, she feels that the perpetrators are an organized group motivated by the financial gains of the pornographic industry. In addition, 3 prominent child abuse experts in Israel concur that an organized ring is in operation. Their names are Dr. Danny Brom, Barbara Reicher, and Roni Loeb Richter. If anyone can explain how dozens of children are displaying intense trauma symptoms, with another explanation, please do so.
DeleteIsaac, There is no evidence of any pornographic pictures or movies or anything of the sort. So for Dr Silberg to come to those conclusions, it is totally speculative. Also, I did not know Dr Silberg speaks Hebrew in order to diagnose the children in this case. If a mother questions her child until the child faints, is that not a form of abuse. This is stated in the court documents. As for 'experts', I don't know what goes on in Israel. In America, it was big business for therapists and others to believe in the Satanical Ritual Abuse. After the fact, it is main stream belief that there was no SRA and that what occurred was a bad case of false memories. Young children are very suggestable. In other words, the 'experts' got it wrong.
DeleteWhat court documents and where can I view them?
Delete1. dr. silberg has over 30 years treating children with trauma and d.i.d.
Deletebased on her experience, she knows that the symptoms that she is seeing here can only be the result of actual, physical abuse.
2. dr. silberg is frum and DOES SPEAK HEBREW.however this point is IRRELEVANT BECAUSE the children she is seeing in the usa(those who fled israel) and in jerusalem are all ENGLISH speakers.
3. as i wrote earlier, the abuse in this case is not SRA. Rather sexual abuse that went on for long periods.
4. many children went bonkers b4 speaking to any therapits or even their parents. how do u explain that?
5. it is true that no pictures have been found, nor is there any confirmed medical evidence. there are no adult witnesses. this whole story rests on the experience, integrity, and expertise of dr. silberg.
It is very hard to back away from conspiracy theories like this. It is very embarrassing to be so wrong and do so much damage in being so wrong.
DeleteIsaac, Thank goodness we have the expertise and integrity of Dr Silberg to rely on. But could you please tell me what you make of this????
Deletehttp://daattorah.blogspot.com/2016/08/dr-joy-silberg-what-is-her-role-in.html#disqus_thread
"If anyone can explain how dozens of children are displaying intense trauma symptoms, with another explanation, please do so."
ReplyDeletehttps://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMartin_preschool_trial
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_Memory_Syndrome_Foundation
Dr silberg made a statement published on the daattorah log for those interested in this topic
ReplyDeleteCourt docs. for Concerned.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.blogger.com/blogger.g?blogID=174927659161333332#editor/target=post;postID=245620412613197597;onPublishedMenu=overviewstats;onClosedMenu=overviewstats;postNum=16;src=postname
Thank you, but I can't access it.
DeleteYou can't trust the police on these matters. They are notoriously hooked up with government officials that engage in ritual abuse.
ReplyDeletePerhaps this post needs a serious update in light of this deep investigative reporting:
ReplyDeletehttps://13tv.co.il/item/news/hamakor/season-17/episodes/ze-p8-1975402/