It's jarring to see how different Memorial Day in the US is from Yom HaZikaron in Israel. For Israel (except some non- and anti-Zionist communities), Yom HaZikaron is an extremely serious business. There's nothing more foundational to the ethics of society than showing appreciation and respect for those who gave their lives to preserve that society. In the United States, on the other hand, it seems to this Brit that there is very little regard for Memorial Day (EDIT - I realize that this is a generalization and it depends very much on what part of America you are in).
Well, at least this year, people can make an excuse that they are taking their cue from the President.
I don't use Twitter, but I happened to take a look at President Trump's twitter feed. I was truly speechless to see that he was truly speechless. He had nothing, absolutely
nothing, to say about Memorial Day. Yes, there were videos of his scripted speeches, but in terms of writing about it - and he writes about what he cares about - he had nothing to say. The only thing that he wrote about was his fury against the media for criticizing him for playing golf over the weekend!
Of course, that ranting is in any case unjustified. Trump argues that Obama also played golf during times of crisis. That may be, but there are three crucial points that he neglects to mention. First is that Trump's golf vacations
vastly exceed Obama's. Second is that Trump himself, while campaigning, said that if he would be elected, he would not play golf. Third is that Trump
himself harshly criticized Obama for playing golf! So if it's okay for him to criticize presidents that play golf, why shouldn't other people do it?!
A hundred thousand Americans have died from coronavirus. It's a day that commemorates countless more that died for America. And all he cares about is people criticizing him - for the same thing that he criticized others for?
There are people who don't believe that any good person can vote for Trump. I'm not American, but I can totally understand it; after all, there may be important policy differences between Republicans and Democrats that can be reasonably seen as being the most significant thing. And Jews understandably want to support someone who expresses strong pro-Israel sentiments, and who surrounds himself with pro-Israel people rather than the reverse. But what I can't understand is people who do not see any serious character problems with President Trump.
(I hope that it's not too much to ask everyone reading this to be able to look at things in shades other than black-and-white.)
I think we all see some character problems with President Trump, but the alternative then was the repugnant, loathsome and deplorable Hillary Clinton, with all the destructive liberal policies that go along with the Democrats. Now the alternative is the clueless, brain-addled, belligerent, gaffe-a-minute and creepy "Surly Joe" Biden, who has dementia and really ought to be in a nursing home. Elect him and you're actually electing a crotchety, cantankerous, octogenarian Jewish Socialist, whose policies Surly Joe will promote and who will appoint AOC and Ilhan Omar to high positions. You gotta be kidding me. Trump wins in a landslide and the Democrats know it. Not even they are believing the idiot liberal press polls.
ReplyDeleteDid you support impeachment and removal? At that point the alternative was the highly moral, pro-Israel, upstanding Mike Pence, with all the good conservative policies you would expect from a member of the Christian right. But something tells me you didn't think of it in those terms.
DeleteDA
DeleteJoe Biden is Jewish ?
"liberal press polls"...you mean like Rasmussen?
DeleteI usually agree with most of what RDNS writes but I disagree with his mischaracterizations of President Trump. I'm sure there's millions of Americans playing golf or enjoying themselves in one form or another. Why is it hypercritical if Trump does it? Not to mention that he's done a great job in handling the coronavirus crisis.
ReplyDeleteUSA leads the world in COVID19 cases and COVID19 deaths. This is a great job?
DeleteYou don't understand why it's hypocritical for someone who complains about person A doing X to do X himself? Trump's golf playing is pretty much a textbook example, if he criticized Obama for doing the same thing.
Deletethink in proportion; deaths per million
DeleteMore tishkoret. US is in 11th place for cases per million and 12th place in deaths per million. Source:
Deletehttps://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/#countries
Ask yourself why you're being fed lies and why you swallow them.
I have no opinion on him playing golf but you didn't really just suggest Trump has done a good job? The job where he initially claimed the virus was nothing to worry about at all. Then regularly contradicted Fauchi, suggested that the injection of disinfectant might be an effective treatment, then publicised taking a drug unproven for Covid - trials for which, incidentally, have been suspended because of safety fears. And of course then there's the idea to open up the states while numbers of cases and deaths continue to rise. You appear to be setting the bar for a good job very low - We know all about setting the bar low here: I am writing from the UK where we keep having to set the bar lower and lower for Boris and his cronies - and I speak as someone who voted for him...
Delete@Avi Rosenthal,
DeleteI am the furthest thing from a Trump fan but "leading the world in COVID19 deaths" is a silly talking point. The US is a big country. Per capita is the only fair way to measure these things. Belgium, Spain, UK, Italy, France, Sweden, Netherlands and Ireland all worse than US.
I agree. I think Trump has done a good job thus far. The main issue with Covid has been the Democrat delay, which has been slowing a potential recovery.
DeleteIt's a lot lower than 11th and 12th place.
DeleteNew York City and surrounding areas not only went for herd immunity, but overshot massively because of wrongheaded, flat-earth science "stay-at-home" policies. For some context, Coronaviruses traditionally peter out at about 5 - 10% superspreader immunity - New York City has already shot to 45%+ immunity and there is still universal community spread in the 5 Boros.
If you exclude De Blasio's experiment and the nursing home crisis in states with Democratic Governors, then the United States has one of the best COVID results in the world.
Trump leads by example. For example, President Trump halted all flights from China. In doing so he helped delay or stopped future, potential coronavirus cases (See Fauci). On the flip side, Bernie Sanders said he would have open borders, even during Coronavirus!
DeleteI also applaud Trump when he stopped giving money to WHO (World Health Organization). The one job WHO is instructed to manage is to warn humanity of potential threats (viruses). So far all we have is Tedrose acting like a spokesperson for China. For example, a journalist (I cannot remember her name) called Tedrose for an interview. When she asked him controversial questions regarding COIVED-19 he first ignored her then proceeded in hanging up. There is no free press? Indeed, Tedros is a puppet for China. He's a communist from Ethiopia. And since WHO is a puppet for China it makes sense that they would keep Taiwan out of their organization. Worse, WHO lied and said the virus did not make contact via humans. Trump only parroted in what he thought was reliable information. Similarly, because of WHO's lies, Boris Johnson delayed in closing the UK. But we should blame our leaders as much as we should blame the source, WHO is giving us the wrong information.
Whether you like his policies or not, at least Trump will stand up to WHO.
Puffin is a Useful Idiot. You were probably calling Trump a xenophobe when he terminated travel from China in January. Are you an alinsky Gilgul, you sloth?
DeletePerhaps the American tishkoret isn't reporting everything:
ReplyDeletehttps://twitchy.com/brettt-3136/2020/05/25/comms-guy-for-julian-castro-contrasts-the-bidens-visiting-a-war-memorial-with-president-trump-golfing/
Mr Slifkin doesn't take time to reason facts. He's too busy being rational.
DeleteRabbi Dr. Slifkin - a few points:
ReplyDelete1. Memorial Day in the US is not and, for at least the past 50 years (i.e., in my memory), has not been viewed as a day of mourning as it is in Israel. Instead, it is seen as just another day off, and the "unofficial" start of summer. There are, of course, those who see it as something more - mainly those who lost family or friends in America's wars - but that is not the "feel" of Memorial Day in the US.
2. You overestimate the impact of President Trump's support of Israel on the US Jewish electorate. While there are some Jews who vote on that basis, they constitute a minority of American Jewry - the vast majority of whom have changed their primary religion to Progressive Liberalism rather than Judaism. I believe Hilary received ~70% of the Jewish vote - a far higher percentage than that of any other "white" ethnic group. Trump's target with his pro-Israel stances is more the American Evangelical population, who tend to be extremely pro-Israel.
3. There's no question that Trump is a vulgar, thin-skinned bully with questionable (at best) morals. That being said, I would hope that Americans would look at the policies he's following, rather than the individual - similar to what I did last time around. For me, Israel is a make-or-break issue, and I can therefore not see myself voting for Joe Biden - a nice(r) man, but "Obama-lite" on Israel. There are enough people in the US who think like that to give Trump a realistic chance of winning.
Joe Biden has a fifty year record of support for Israel. US Democrats, led by African Americans, rejected the Jewish candidate who tolerates anti-Semites and BDS advocates even as he himself opposes both.
DeleteCharlie - I acknowledge that Joe Biden does have a 50-year record of supporting Israel - but that support, at least over the past 15 years, has been of the Obama variety - "I support Israel, and I know what's good for it better than the Israelis - so I'll impose my vision on them". You are correct that he does have a historically warmer relationship with Israel that Obama - which is why I referred to him as "Obama-lite" on Israel.
DeleteAs to the Democratic party rejecting Sanders - don't delude yourself into thinking that he was rejected by Democrats on account of his tolerance of anti-Semites and BDS supporters. He was rejected because a significant part of the Democratic party still is not ready for his brand of "Democratic Socialism". The tolerance for unsavory characters was of import for only a very small portion of the Democratic electorate.
He also supported the disastrous Iran deal, knowing that the liberal Jewish democrats wouldn't leave him over a threat to Israel.
DeleteBesides with Rashida Tlaib and Ilhan Omar, the major anti semites are on the left.
the current democratic party-those under 40-- is basically Corbyn's labour party. not good for supporters of anachronistic patriarchal forms of judaism, or supporters of the zionist entity
DeleteI'm not surprised that you are getting trashed by Trump's Hassidim. But they should consider. Even if they are right about the Democrats, they have to acknowledge that Trump is incompetent. So which is worse for the USA, Socialism or self-destruction by incompetence? It doesn't help us if Trump is pro-Israel if he destroys the USA and China takes over the world.
ReplyDeleteJoe Biden is not a socialist by any definition. And even Bernie Sanders is no Clement Attlee.
DeleteNeither is Obama, yet he paved the way for its rise.
DeleteBut you are, right?
DeleteBiden will become a Socialist overnight, since he has no agenda, no vision, he's not well, his VP will take over in 6 months, and he's already adopted a lot of the miserable Socialist policies of Boynie and the laughably clueless barista, Ocasio Cortez, and the tramp with the hijab.
DeleteHard to reply to Avi when he's incapable of remembering or seeing. Three months ago Trump's policies broke all positive records, while geniuses said the opposite would happen.
DeleteMaybe you should come out of Biden's basement and smell the employment rate.
President Trump is not merely pro-Israel;
ReplyDeletehe is the MOST pro-Israel president EVER.
Therefore, Jews should NEVER criticize
or attack him, no matter what happens.
There are millions of people who criticize
him every day -- the world does NOT need
Jews to criticize or attack him also.
Our duty as Jews is to give President Trump
thanks and gratitude, not to attack him.
Therefore, Jews should NEVER criticize
Deleteor attack him, no matter what happens.
Now I know why you usually just vomit link spam. Because when you say what's on your mind you prove that you're a greater moron than anyone could have imagined.
Our duty is to criticize politicians when they deserve it and to give them credit when they deserve that.
DeleteTrump deserves credit for moving the US embassy to Jerusalem but for very little else. Israel is in the worst strategic position it has been in in over 40 years. Iran has enough enriched uranium to build nuclear weapons today and that is a direct result of Trump's policies. And the US has now had a hundred thousand deaths from COVID-19, the highest rate of unemployment since the Great Depression, and no real recovery plan.
Chazal are clear about the importance of character in community leaders. Trump fails every one of those standards. Our Rabbinic Tradition has been proven correct. :(
And as Jason Maoz has pointed out in multiple articles, the most pro-Israel President was Lyndon Johnson. Here is an example:
https://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/front-page/who-was-the-first-genuinely-pro-israel-u-s-president/2017/08/30/
Charlie - I completely agree with you on praising when it is due and criticizing when its warranted - and there's no question that President Trump deserves both in ample measure. And this is not only on Israel, though from my perspective, that is the most important. Specifically:
Delete1. Moving the embassy - praiseworthy.
2. Moving the goal posts on future discussions with the PA - i.e., making them see that there is a cost to intransigence - praiseworthy.
3. Leaving the Iran agreement, which was fatally flawed from the outset on account of (a) not restricting nuclear weapons research; (b) the ten-year sunset clause; (c) failing to call Iran to account for their lying and obfuscation in the past (as proven by the documents "liberated" by Israel); and (d) failing to address Iran's otherwise malign influence in the region (and in fact, sending them vast quantities of cash that were used to further such influence) - praiseworthy.
4. Confronting China's unfair trade policies and practices - while I think that a greater degree of subtlety may have been better, it was necessary to call out China - so on the whole, I'd rate this as praiseworthy.
5. Re-balancing the US judiciary - there had been significant drift of the US judiciary to a more "activist" posture over the last 50+ years. As one who does NOT believe in the concept of the constitution as a "living document", I think this re-balancing is long overdue - though I acknowledge that you (and others) may not agree. To me, though, this is praiseworthy.
As to criticisms:
1. His handling of the COVID-19 situation has been abysmal. From "it's nothing, it will blow over" to "I knew this was going to be a big deal" to "it's time to re-open" without adequate evidence that it's safe, he deserves almost all criticism he's received.
2. His tax reform was a disaster. It needlessly increased the US deficit, and was incredibly poorly written, such that there are all kinds of unexpected and unplanned consequences.
3. His bullying attitude towards allies and denigration of alliances (such as NATO) is incredibly unhelpful, and his lack of loyalty towards the Kurds in Syria is worthy of strong condemnation. Failing to back your allies is a good way to lose influence in the international arena.
4. His overall coarseness, bullying, immaturity, and use of infantile insults degrades the presidency. He unquestionably fails Chazal's qualifications for leadership, and there is no question that this is worthy of condemnation.
Overall, he is far from my ideal candidate; however, to me, there are more reasons to vote for him than for Joe Biden. You may well disagree, but should at least acknowledge that there are legitimate, thoughtful reasons for such a vote.
The same Lyndon Johnson who would settle arguments by laying his, um, organ on the table and challenging his opponent to a size comparison?
DeleteCharlie, it's high time you acknowledged what trumps what (no pun intended) in your value system.
So you're going to blame Trump for COVID-19, eh? Ridiculous.
DeleteYou think a Biden or Sanders or even Obama presidency would have resulted in fewer deaths? Lower unemployment? Fortunately, we have the Democratic debates which conclusively show that they did not take the threat any more seriously or put forward any policy actions that would have put the U.S. on a markedly different course than the one we are on.
100,000 deaths, while horrible and tragic, are far less than the original projections. The economy was purposely and purposefully shut down. As it reopens the vast majority of those jobs will return (though, admittedly, not all). Comparisons to the Great Depression are a straw man argument and everyone knows it.
Furthermore, please read the U.S. Constitution. The president does not have the authority to do a lot of the things that needed doing - and were done. That power lies with the governors of the states, each of whom responded differently, based on the local circumstances. Isn't it interesting that 80% of COVID deaths are in the states with 54% of the U.S. population? That portion of the country with Democrats as governors! Even if you take New York and New Jersey out of the equation, these states collectively had more deaths per capita than states with Republican governors. (I did not get this data from Fox News, I ran the numbers myself out of curiosity. I was - am - shocked.)
And let's remember this is the president whom everyone said wanted to be a dictator. But he told the states to decide. So now the Left accuses him of not doing enough. Precious!
I'm the first to admit that Trump acts juvenile and petty. He will still be getting my vote in November.
How much did LBJ help Israel right before the 6 day war?
DeleteNada. So much for the most pro-Israel president ever.
Mister Mishnah - "You think a Biden or Sanders or even Obama presidency would have resulted in fewer deaths? Lower unemployment?"
DeleteAbsolutely. None of the above would have dissolved the pandemic response team, or ignored the 69-page "pandemic playbook" - not to mention Trump's denial of the severity of Covid far outlasted theirs.
I don't agree with everything Mr. Hall said on this page, but I agree completely with the attitude of criticize when appropriate and praise when appropriate. (It's sort of surprising that this is a thing to argue about, but whatever.) And the federal government DID mishandle COVID. No, Mister Mishnah, I do not "blame" Trump for the virus [obviously], but holy moly, with the rising level of info coming out of China in January [yes - it was in the news in January, US experts were on the ground in China in January, etc] we should have begun doing SOMETHING already in February. Perhaps not lockdown then (nobody would have accepted it) but begun infectious disease prep like ramping up production/purchase of PPE and making travel advisories and whatnot. And yes, the states all acted uniquely, but the federal government had the info first. Could a Democrat have ultimately done better? Of course, I don't really know without a machine that can take us into a parallel universe. But Democrats are less fearful of science (the fact that Republicans are more fearful is a terrible thing and hurts them in the modern day) and would be more likely to say and do something. [Of course, being Democrats, they might act but screw it up differently!!]
DeleteOh, and the states with large populations having Democrat leadership - it's well known that urban areas are more Democrat, and urban areas - ie big cities - are typically the places that travelers pass through (or go to) when they fly from other countries. So they were hit harder.
At least Mister Mishnah's final paragraph makes sense.
MV,
DeletePlease describe what Trump, as president, could have done that the governors of New York and New Jersey could not have done in their states? Please demonstrate with quotations and dates how candidates Biden and Sanders (and for that matter former president Obama) laid out policy recommendations that were ignored.
Mister Mishnah
DeleteI ain't your damn secretary.
It is utterly untrue that Trump's golf activity is vastly greater than Obama's. And Trump is criticizing *the press* for blasting the same thing Obama did (under worse conditions). The hypocracy and bias od the press in the United States in maddening. Trump's criticism of the press is justified.
ReplyDeleteMemorial day in the US is indeed viewed completely differently than Yom Hazikaron in Israel; for the vast makority of people, it's simply a holiday, a day off, and golfing or going to the beach is a perfectly normal Memorial Day activity. I wonder how many of the righteous reporters visited a military cemetery on Memorial Day and somberly paid their respects to the solders who died in battle, and how many went to the beach.
"And Trump is criticizing *the press* for blasting the same thing Obama did"
DeleteBUT TRUMP HIMSELF BELIEVES IN BLASTING PRESIDENTS FOR THAT!!!
RDNS,
DeleteDo you try really hard either (1) not to understand what people are saying, or (2) ignore inconvenient facts
so that you can say that they are wrong.
It is irrelevant that Trump believes in blasting presidents for that. In this instance, Trump was not complaining about being criticized but about the press's double standard of criticizing Trump but not Obama for similar behaviour.
One of my Rabbi's once gave us a great piece of mussar - we get the leaders that we deserve (ouch!).
ReplyDeleteIn regards to 45, I think that Dan Crenshaw said it well to Bill Maher - "he's not my spiritual mentor". There's no point in pointing out his numerous character flaws unless you're trying to score political points against him.
Great point. Many of our presidents, Republican and Democrat, have had serious character flaws (Kennedy was a serial adulterer). That's why they are politicians and not preists or rabbis. It would be nice if they were perfect, but that isn't always an option.
DeleteCrenshaw will be President in 2024. The man is really good.
DeleteIn the US Veterans Day is the day where Americans soberly remember those soldiers who fought and died to protect their country. And as for golf, I believe President Eisenhower played golf every week, weather permitting, during his 8 years in office.
ReplyDeleteTechnically that is not how it is supposed to be, but perhaps because that day - Veterans' Day - is for the soldiers still living, we are able to muster some semblance of decorum about it. The Veterans, in turn, remember their lost comrades-in-arms.
DeleteAlthough this holiday served only as a point of departure for R' Slifkin's comments, I think there is an important issue here that needs to be addressed from a Jewish perspective--especially for American Jews.
ReplyDeleteMemorial Day began as "Decoration Day," when flags and flowers were placed on the graves of Union soldiers, following the Civil War. It was not observed in the South, whose states had their own memorial occasions. Many of us whose fore bearers emigrated to the States later are prone to be unaware of the hard feelings and resentments that lasted very long after the War Between the States. And that is why it wasn't until 1971 that the day was finally recognized as a federal holiday and neutralized into Memorial Day--with little or no specific reference to the dead from that conflagration. The day now is dedicated to those who fell victim in all wars.
Veterans Day began as a celebration of the end of WWI, and was known thenceforth as Armistice Day, celebrated specifically on Nov. 11. Today it honors all veterans who served in any of the services at any time, from Revolutionary days onward.
Now let's get to the real issue here. Why, in either case, do Americans seem so blase and detached from these two occasions, as compared with Israeli attitudes toward similar observances?
Why is the Jewish community, i.e. individuals, in particular, so silent in honoring the dead Americans who helped bring an end to Hitler's war on the Jews. Roosevelt had little to do with it; he could not have cared less about the Jews. No, it was those men and women. Like most other Americans, it seems the Jews have short memories. Call it ingratitude, if you like. Perhaps other readers have some ideas they might wish to share about the question I have raised, but here are some thoughts to consider.
First is the influence of the anti-Vietnam War movement on the thoughts and behavior of a generation of Americans who are by now parents, grandparents and even great grandparents. To many of them the military were no longer heroes fighting for the rest of us, but villains. This narrative was foisted onto the scene largely by a bunch of Red Diaper Babies and assorted other fellow travelers. Service to our country was no longer to be honored, it was to be condemned. The residual effect of this phenomenon can be seen in the detached and often derisive attitudes of many of the media elite concerning efforts to combat terrorist-sponsored violence. So lip service is paid the dead from OK wars and avoided for not-so-OK military actions.
Second, although comparisons with Israel are somewhat limited in the following regard, consider how many Americans today are immigrants with absolutely no connections whatsoever to the fallen and veterans of previous conflicts. True in Israel, too, but here most of the neighbors of these New Americans seem no more respectful of these holidays (in terms of their purpose) than are the immigrants. [Here and there one reads stories of folks who continue to honor dead relatives, on these holidays, but they seem a distinct minority.] Yet in Israel most newcomers join in together with everyone else, it appears. Is it because many of them have fled persecution or poverty elsewhere and are grateful to have found a haven in Israel? And grateful to those who made it possible and who continue to protect them?
Anyway, maybe someone else who also is in a lockdown at home with some spare time to think about it will have some thoughts on this issue. Consider how many fewer of us might be around today were it not for the sacrifices others made for us. Chag Sameach.
Just to add, in terms of the post-Vietnam negative bias toward military folk, the post 9-11 world did something to shift the pendulum back again. It's like verboten to criticize the military now, and many people say "thank you for your service" etc. But it hasn't changed Memorial Day!
DeleteAs I heard from a friend. Trump is Trump. He is who he is. Dont bring raayas from Trump.
ReplyDeleteRegardless of the US president's attitude, there is a much more fundamental problem in the United States (leading the wider trans-Atlantic word in this matter as in many others) in civil-military relations. Much of the pro-military sentiment is an overcompensation for the cold shoulder that was shown to veterans of the Vietnam War. It is well-intended, but with less than one per cent of US citizens having ever served at present, there is the twin problem of mutual civil-military alienation (with all its consequences for policy and society) coupled with military service becoming an increasingly hereditary career choice, especially among officers. No wonder many Americans either
ReplyDeletea) don't know what Memorial Day is about or cannot sufficiently distinguish it from Veteran's Day (incidentally, there is some overlap with Shavuot and Simchat Torah here), or
b) don't see enough of a connection with it in their personal lives to observe it in a suitably solemn manner.
This blog entry:
Deletehttps://warontherocks.com/2020/05/this-memorial-day-lets-finally-start-having-an-honest-national-conversation-about-military-service/
illustrates the point very well.
RNS: I have to disagree with you. Trump spoke at Arlington cemetery, laid a wreath at the "tomb of the unknown soldier" met with grieving families and later in the day went to play golf. He didn't Tweet that out... please dont confuse that with the usual media hit pieces he criticizes...
ReplyDeleteRNS: I have to disagree with you. Trump spoke at Arlington cemetery, laid a wreath at the "tomb of the unknown soldier" met with grieving families and later in the day went to play golf. He didn't Tweet that out... please dont confuse that with the usual media hit pieces he criticizes...
ReplyDeleteCan't wait for Rebel's Day!
ReplyDeleteThe tweeting is aimed at people with an IQ of 90, which is his core electorate, and other people find it embarrassing. Unfortunately, every adult is allowed to vote and so, sooner or later someone was going to start openly soliciting their support. The real issue, though, is so what? Let's imagine that, instead of a being a vulgarian who says whatever random stuff pops into his head, Trump was an active homosexual. Obviously, if you believe in Judaism even a little bit, being an active homosexual is millions of times worse, but we wouldn't be expected to ritually preface every discussion of American politics with 'of course Trump is disgusting and vile, and appalling and , but.....'. So why is this different? No coherent answer to this question is ever provided by the Jewish/Christian NeverTrump prudes so there's nothing to talk about. You don't like the tweets? Don't look. Done.
ReplyDeleteThe tweets show what idiocy pops into his head - normal people don't think these things long enough to type them. It shows a lack of focus, lack of normal human empathy, conspiratorial thinking, and a general fuzziness in his brain (and a lot more). I can ignore it but what that reflects about his judgment doesn't go away. None of this relates to a homosexual.
DeleteIf you think that Trump is cognitively impaired, that's a reasonable argument, but that's not what is being argued here and it is not what really animates the NeverTrump crowd. The argument, rather is that he is morally reprehensible and this is clearly based on a moral scale that has nothing to do with Judaism, given the moral flaws they will not only excuse, but ignore entirely in other leaders.
DeletePresident Trump is hundreds of times better for America, Israel and Jews then the Democraps. If Obama would be president at these times the problems would be much worse. The incompetence, and worse of all the hatred against Israel. Now is the time for Jews to annex Eretz Yisrael and deal serious blows to the enemy.
ReplyDeleteTzvi D
Mr. Cohen - well said
ReplyDeleteDespite my temptation, I'll try to restrain myself from commenting on Trump.
ReplyDeleteOn the topic of Memorial Day: I am a Canadian who lived in the US for a number of years (including during the wars of the early 2000s), and it was something of a shock for me to see that even during an era when American soldiers were dying overseas in large numbers, the American Memorial Day was basically still an early-summer BBQ party day.
In Canada our war-memorial day (Nov 11th) is treated with a fair amount of solemnity across the board despite a much weaker "civic religion" than in the US. The idea of a leader doing anything but attending ceremonies and meeting veterans on that day is basically inconceivable.
I do find it ironic that a country that devotes so many resources to its military de facto does not have a war-memorial holiday.
I'm also Canadian, though because of boy Trudeau I don't usually admit that. I can still recite the first stanza of In Flanders Fields by heart, though I doubt very many people in today's "multicultural" Canada even know what a poppy is. Come off your high horse. This is just more media spin and you know it.
DeleteYour comment suggests that it's been a while since you spent any time in a major Canadian city, especially in early November. Poppies are worn by people of all ethnicities. And people are beyond the "today's 'multicultural' Canada" bit.
DeleteTrump can do what he wants, but there's no media spin in my personal observation that Remembrance Day is taken very seriously in Canada, while the USA functionally has no equivalent (Memorial Day is that holiday in name only).
Joe Q, possibly you live in a small hamlet in the Prairies or, shall we say, the Maritimes? Toronto and Ottawa are still very much caught up in the multi-culti cult, as least as far as officialdom goes. And yes, of course you can find individuals of all ethnicities wearing the poppy. But they're not wearing it in anywhere remotely close to the average pre 1990s Canadian.
DeleteAs for Remembrance Day - the reality is that there are very few Canadians alive today who have lost anyone in a war. WWII was a long time ago, friend Joe Q.
DF -- Can I again ask when the last time you spent time in a major Canadian city, especially around Remembrance Day? Doesn't have to be Toronto or Ottawa -- any big city. Your comments about multiculturalism and ethnic minorities not wearing poppies seem deeply out-of-touch with the "metziut" around here. Whatever culture-war there may have been over multiculturalism is long in the past.
DeleteYour point about Canadians not having lost anyone in a war is true -- and proves my point, in that despite that fact, Remembrance Day is still taken very seriously as a time of national reflection. The US, by contrast, which has lost so many more people in wars over the last couple of decades, does not have a comparable commemoration. Don't you find that fascinating?
LOL. Slow day, RNS? Tired of Charedim , now time for silly potshots at the US President? Or was this just a favor to Professor H (who, I have not read, but assume is busy commenting away up there)? After the first sentence every word in this post is false, including "and" and "the."
ReplyDeletePlease state whether or not it is justified to criticize a president for playing golf.
Deleteit is justified when the playing of golf is done in a way that is wrong. as when Obama had a photo op after the brutal killing by ISIS of a young man and immediatally went to play golf. for a president to take time to play golf on a holiday weekend NOT
DeleteI can quote you what Emerson had to say about inconsistency, or I might also observe that yourself wrote a whole book supporting charedi positions, yet now spend every other day bashing them. Why bother, though? Its pointless and meaningless, like every other "argument" anyone has advanced here. (I exempt myself, as I have not made any arguments, I merely heaped scorn and poured invective upon others who did.)
DeleteIt's been fun to hoot and holler at each other, and accuse one another of this and that. Cathartic, you know? But you shouldn't dream that anyone is actually going to stop and think, "Gee, I never considered that." No SIR! Jews are pretty opinionated, and aint nobody gonna convince anyone else of nothin'. If you don't know that, why - as Mr. Biden might say - you aint even Jewish.
The comments posted here prove the obvious point: there is simply no point in having a political argument. No one is listening and everyone is shouting. The record will show that Trump ranks with James Buchanan and Andrew Johnson as among the worst American presidents. I am not going to worry why that is not obvious to everyone. We all look at the world differently.
ReplyDeleteLol, that was a classic leftist move. Cry about "civility" in the very same sentence as he takes a potshot at the other side. Dude, that was perfect.
DeleteLol DF, so true. Acts as if he wants to get along, then takes his shot.
DeleteHe may be a knucklehead, but he's OUR knucklehead.
ReplyDeleteThis post, unlike every other one on your blog, has nothing to do with rationalism of Judaism. You are abusing your platform...for what?
ReplyDeleteTo alienate possible allies, apparently. I'm for one and finished being a Slikin apologist.
DeleteOr perhaps one schooled in fundamentalism never really loses it, he just shifts allegiances.
DeleteOr, based on one commenter here, there are baser motives. I'll be glad to be proved wrong there.
I don't know that I could add more than what Michael Dworkin said above, but we could argue (a little) that calendrical placement makes a difference. Memorial Day is always a Monday, so the weekend is longer. Vacation! Fun! Hooray! Veterans Day is on a Tuesday, which is the middle of the week, so there is no automatic nature to the fun.
ReplyDeleteAlso, Yom HaZikaron is paired with Yom HaAtzmaut, so it is sorta codified that one day Israelis are somber, for they know that the next day they can rejoice. Memorial Day in the US is not paired with anything.
Also also, most Americans have no personal connection to the military. Sure, there are some communities and regions and classes/ethnicities/some-distinction-I-can't-quite-make that send a notable fraction of their sons (and daughters) to the military, but most of the middle class does not. Therefore, there is no one to remember. In Israel, EVERYONE (except chareidim, I suppose) knows people who were in the army or they were themselves, and they probably know at least one who died in combat. It's a different setup.
I say this not to defend the US practice, but to explain it.
Actually, this year was the first time I saw a comment in an actual publication pointing out the irony of commemorating the dead soldiers by celebrating with a barbecue.
Veterans' Day is always November 11th, which means it can fall on any day of the week. Washington's Birthday and Labor Day are also always Mondays (the former moved there, the latter created on it), and who thinks of Washington or Labor on their respective "days"? No one. At least people still give thanks on Thanksgiving.
DeleteHuh, my mistake. Somehow in my head, Veterans Day is always Tuesday. Well, my point still stands about it being during the week, at least sometime.
DeleteBut Washington's B-day (and Lincoln's B-day, which have now been mashed together into the chimaera known as "Presidents Day") and Labor Day do not have anything sad at their core. We can have barbecues and car sales etc without any emotional dissonance. It's only Memorial Day that is weird in that respect.
I suppose you could assume that Labor Day is supposed to be a day of mourning for the rise of labor unions, but if that is the case, then buying a new car and lining the pockets of the big manufacturing corporations is indeed an appropriate gesture...
It is important to remember that things are very different here in the United States. We are in the midst of a culture/religious/constitutional war and President Trump has been a big defender of our liberties. Yes, he has flaws, I do not deny them. However, I look at his policies and what he accomplishes, not what he says. I do not look to the president to be my moral leader and I do not think the founders meant it to be such. There is a reason we have a separation between church and state. We should look to our religious leaders for moral and ethical guidance, not politicians. That being said, it doesn't mean that he should act poorly, and I would love if our president, Democrat or Republican, was Moses, but sometimes that is not an option, as was the case in 2016. What I can truly not understand is why someone would not vote at all.
ReplyDeleteFor once, religious people in this country have a leader that stands up for them. All leaders have flaws, that does not mean they should not be leaders. Thankfully, if a person feels that Trump is not fit to lead, they can simply not vote for him. I, for one, think that he is, and has done a good job overall.
I truly hope that RNS takes a trip to small town America and speaks to the average American. I think he would be impressed and walk away with a better understanding of America and why it is the greatest country in human history.
Maybe Natan should retire his blog. He clearly has covered rationalism so much that he's just beyond it. The hyper rational. Now he wants to convert americans from being a Republic to being a Rationalist , something, ...
DeleteI guess that ship has sailed, his work here is done.
Rabbi Slifkin, I am American and I completely agree with you. My wife and I can't understand how frum Jews, with all the morality and middos they're supposed to possess, can find Trump anything other than disgusting -- even if they feel they need to vote for him.
ReplyDeleteAgain, would you say this if Trump was in every way a fine and upstanding person, but
Deletea) had been involved in an abortion - שפיכת דמים
b) was a practicing Hindu - עבודה זרה
c) was a paracticing homosexual - גלוי עריות
And if the answer is no (which obviously it is) why do you think middos are more important than the core moral principles of Judaism and why are you bewildered that we do not agree with you in this?
Gavriel
DeleteHis detractors think his flaws are obvious to everyone of every background. The flaws you point to are not. Absent a revelation at Sinai (are non-Jews expected to believe in that?):
a) Is abortion murder? Perhaps at some point, but probably not early on the in the pregnancy, right? At what point?
b) Avodah Zarah - is that obviously immoral?
c) practicing homosexual - is this obviously immoral? Perhaps that was obvious decades ago (I say perhaps), is that still true?
It's not that middos are more important, but that they are more obviously a value. The items you list don't seem to be.
Gavriel M -- There's a big difference between (a) genuinely trying but failing to figure out what is morally right, and (b) having absolutely no scruples - no concern for right and wrong - whenever one's own interests are in play.
DeleteSomeone involved in abortion, Hinduism or homosexuality could easily fall into the category of what we would call a tinok shenishba. We can make excuses for people who did not benefit from good guidance as to what is right and what is wrong. Most Americans fall into that category on at least some issues.
But I've never heard anybody suggest you can be a tinok shenishba with respect to narcissism, dishonesty and nastiness. Everybody is expected to know to behave decently. Trump doesn't.
Ah, the "middos and virtue" voter who clearly prefers the party that advocates for abortion on demand and even after birth! You all clearly live God's values, you holy jews, you!
DeleteHe's been proven to engage in stealing. There goes ben noach right there. And do you really think he is careful with any other mitzvah? let alone aware of mitzvos?
DeleteI can't understand why Jews of all people can't understand why a frum Jew like myself would vote for him. I voted for him because I agree with his policies, he stands up for religious people and defends America. It would be great if he was a saint, I don't think anyone would deny that, but when presented with two options, I chose the one I liked the most.
DeleteAn unusual dose of fake news from our friend across the pond. Trump was at Arlington and at Ft. McHenry for Memorial Day commemorations. He has been better to the military (i.e. the living men and women serving our country) than any other president in recent memory.
ReplyDeleteOne can argue about his policies (though I don't see how any pro-Israel person can believe he hasn't been anything other than great for Israel) and even more so about his personality, but the lies about him only serve to expose how little his opponents have to offer in terms of substantive in terms of policy.
H"has been better for the military".....????
DeleteWhat do you base that on? I suspect you'd be rather surprised what the military thinks of our current president. Waving and hugging the flag doesn't impress the modern soldier, who is far more sophisticated in his/her thinking than most give credit for.
He's been better because he hasn't sent them to die in pointless wars.
Delete@anonymous - hear hear!!
DeleteIt doesn't sound as if you have any communication with current active military. I'm guessing you haven't even bothered to talk to any as a means to refining your opinion. That's probably why you are wrong.
DeleteMemorial Day is just not as big a deal in the US like it is in Israel. In the US, only a small percentage of the population has served in the military and they tend to be from specific demographics (lower income/more rural/family history of military service). People who aren't from those demographics often don't personally know anyone who has served.
ReplyDeleteAlso, unlike Israel, the US isn't surrounded by enemies and wars aren't viewed as existential or threatening Americans' way of life, with the sole exception of WWII. For example, while the outcome of the Vietnam war was a tragedy for the people of Vietnam, it didn't make any difference for the lives of Americans at home, other than those who were impacted by the draft.
Regarding Trump, there's no question that the mainstream media acts like a campaign apparatus of the Democrat party and Trump uses Twitter to fight back. For example, the media gave very heavy coverage to the Trump/Russia collusion story for over 2 years. When it turned out that it was based solely on lies paid for by the Hillary campaign (the Steele Dossier) and leaked by anti-Trump members of the FBI, the media suddenly lost its interest. Similarly, the mainstream media doesn't have much of an interest in recent revelations that the Obama administration was actively spying on members of the incoming Trump administration during their last weeks in office. It is passed off as no big deal by the media. However, if the outgoing Bush administration had spied on the incoming Obama administration, the mainstream media would have been outraged and devoted significant coverage.
Lastly, to make Memorial Day about people who died from Covid, as the New York Times did, is ridiculous. Memorial Day is designed to commemorate people who sacrificed their lives by fighting in wars for their country. There are millions of people who die in the US every year from various diseases and accidents. While each case is commemorated by friends and family, there is no national aspect (as in giving one's life for one's country) to any particular cause of death and so does not merit any national commemoration.
The true test of emunah in Trump will be whether one discards or keeps their red MAGA amulet after he converts to Islam...
ReplyDeleteAs orthodox Jews we all accept that the main function of Torah is to develop Middos Tovos.
ReplyDeleteI cannot understand how any self respecting orthodox jew can support a character like Trump who possesses every bad Middah under the sun. Gaavah, Kaas, Loshon Hora, Chutspah, nivul pen....the man is a walking, talking Roshoh....
....albeit one who happens to have pro israel policies
Yeah, because Biden has none of those things. And Obama didn't. And Hillary didn't.
DeleteGive me a break.
Your Avodo Zora Mr Trump is worse than all of them put together.
DeleteNot to mention dangerous. Look how cavalier he was at first with covi19. How many lives has he cost.
It's mad how blind his supporters are.
I can't understand how any self respecting Orthodox Jew would be unable to understand why another Orthodox Jew would vote for Trump.
DeleteDo people really prefer Obama over Trump? remember that Obama was a sympathizer to Israel's enemies, visited every (Muslim) country in the Middle East except for Israel, and did not have a good relationship with Bibi. On the other hand, Trump correctly recognized the capital of Israel as Jerusalem.
ReplyDeleteOnly self-righteous "elites" prefer someone other than Trump.
DeleteQuite funny when people take the moral and self-righteous high ground while the failing to consider the alternatives.
We are tired of hearing about Trump's narcissism. He's a very flawed individual, but we do not believe the fairytales that the self-selected cabal of politicians who now work for this outsider are these paragons of virtue and wonderful people that their speechwriters make them out to be.
ReplyDeleteThey are phony, fake, selfish and just as corrupt as Trump, probably a lot more corrupt than Trump. We are sick of the constant Trump hate. It may make people feel better about themselves to belittle him, but it doesn't help their cause if they wish to defeat him politically. They are very much like the republicans fighting obama's reelection.
They do it because it inflates their ego. They can go on and on about how they are sooooo concerned with having a moral and ethical leader.
DeleteI guess there wasn't enough going on in the charedi world today, and Nathan needed to branch out.
ReplyDelete"Rabbi" Slifkin must get his news from CNN. Then again, the way "rabbi" slifkin tells a story, selectively, he may in fact be a CNN reporter.
ReplyDeleteThank you for this post. Those who complain about you missing the fact Trump made several campaign stops laying wreaths clearly didn't understand the thrust of this post, namely "But what I can't understand is people who do not see any serious character problems with President Trump.". The Frum community will rue the day they sold their soul to the devil in the White House in exchange for... not much.
ReplyDeleteDear RNS,
ReplyDeleteAs an Israeli who advocated voting for Bibi, I'm not sure you can complain about Americans supporting an immoral Trump.
Where did I write that one shouldn't vote for Trump?
DeleteAll American holidays have been taken over by commercial interests.
ReplyDeleteMemorial Day is the opening of the summer shopping season, as well as the opening of the beaches and pools. This year is different. Scheduling it to Monday, i.e., three day holiday proves it.
When I was at YU, the local veterans group had a parade down Amsterdam Ave. Few people came to watch, to pay honor (if the veterans group would have put a poster or two a day before, students would have come, even if it was finals study week). Meaning the veterans were resigned to not being honored.
--I would ask that you please stop writing about politics so half your readers won’t feel attacked. I love your blog, but when you bash Trump, I find it very offensive, and it is not because I cannot see his flaws. It is because you miss the rational reasons that people love what Trump is doing for the US, as well as Israel, despite his flaws, and you invite more people to think of it as irrational to have a political opinion on the other side. It invites your readers to comment on Trump and his supporters as having low IQs and not being normal, as per the comments above.
ReplyDelete--I am sorry you are so disgusted by people who are not able to see their political leaders' flaws, but how is it your place to share your disgust for such a complex issue while disregarding the complexity, and sometimes missing the facts? You jumped the gun based on a tweet that was misrepresenting the timeline.
-- Do you think there is no one on the other side blind to their leaders' flaws because of policy support? This is a psychological reality, but it does not mean that people are making wrong decisions. It is more likely that they first support their policies, and then become blinded to the flaws. It feels more that you are falling into the trap of the mainstream media who think people are idiots for supporting Trump, and you need to convince them how stupid they are and shut down the debate about real questions of policy.
--Are you not aware of all those who supported the Clintons despite their character flaws, or those who supported Obama and now Biden despite his? Some of their flaws are severe, and some supporters see the flaws, and others deny them, but most supporters are there for the policy first, the character second. It is only for Trump, whose flaws are highlighted by the mainstream media, that people are driven to publicly shame him and his supporters. There are shades of gray on both sides, and it is very painful for those on one side to feel attacked by religious thinkers whom they look to for guidance. Are you going to post about people not seeing Biden's extremely disturbing flaws? Please don't, this is not the place.
Oh boy, you really stepped in it criticizing Trump on a blog frequented by Orthodox Jews. It's not my blog so I'll just say outright that Trump is a corrupt, repugnant, incompetent excuse for a president. He is devoid of empathy, is a serial adulterer, insults women and others repeatedly, cares only about his ratings, is unbelievably ignorant while claiming genius level understanding about everything, is a consumate divider, dog whistles to white supremacists, and can't open his mouth without spewing lies. I am disgusted that this buffoon is our president. When he is gone, his memorial should be a latrine.
ReplyDeleteAh, here comes the potty talk.
DeleteYou gotta love it when Trump supporters complain of "potty" talk. Nachum is offended because zdub used the word "latrine?" Of course, it makes sense that we should hold anonymous blog commenters to a much much higher standard than the prez of the united states.
DeleteI bet Nachum and his ilk wish that Trump would grab them by the XXXXX
DeleteThere is nothing in modern political history more nauseating, and more blatantly hypocritical, than democrats pretending to be worried about morals.
DeleteHow about when lifelong Republicans make that argument against Trump?
DeleteSo we've established that you have little expertise in American politics. Let's try British. Have you ever heard of Neil Kinnock? Do you know what relationship he has to the 2020 US presidential election? Look it up. You might learn something about why millions of people will vote for Trump again.
ReplyDeleteWhere did I write that one shouldn't vote for Trump?
DeleteMaybe you didn't write that one shouldn't vote for Trump, but you should have.
DeleteIt is implied, and stating that you can understand why people might vote for him doesn't help. Pointing out the problems of one side and not the other implies this, and it didn't help that you are highlighting a false narrative about what Trump was doing on Memorial Day. Even though you think you are just wondering why some people do not get offended by his behavior, the nuance that you are trying to relate is lost in the idea that you are judging people who vote for him, and ignoring the problems of people who vote for the other side. It implies the other side must be faultless. Also, stating your opinion in such a context invites hateful attacks and shaming from others, which is hurtful to many. What you think of as innocent analysis turns into: Let's talk about how disgusting a person and horrible a president he is, and how stupid anyone is who votes for him.
Delete"There are people who don't believe that any good person can vote for Trump."
ReplyDeleteThese come in two categories: 1) Leftists, and 2) people who are blind to the dangers posed by Leftists.
A partial list of the recent agenda of Leftist Democrat politicians and their appointed judges, much of which they have already accomplished:
Gay marriage; Christians (and eventually Orthodox Jews) forced by law to provide services at gay marriages; biological men allowed by law to use women's bathrooms; partial birth abortion (i.e infanticide); therapists forbidden by law to treat homosexuals who no longer want to be homosexuals; a peace deal with Iran that gives them billions of dollars to fund their terrorism, and, eventually, a nuclear bomb, and precludes Israel from acting against it; "If you like your doctor/ medical insurance, you can keep it" (all of Trump's lies together are insignificant when compared with this one Obama lie, when judged in terms of impact); anti-Israel bias (Bernie Sanders; and Obama's final non-vote in the UN that gave the Palestinians unearned concessions in any future peace deal); higher taxes and more regulations that kill capital investment, which kill some businesses, stunt the growth of others, and therefore lead to high unemployment (i.e. Obama's whole tenure in office); much less emphasis on keeping our defense technology ahead of the Chinese, Russians, and other predator governments; etc.
I appreciate the nuance in your post, which never actually stated that one should not vote for Trump. But as someone who grew up in a land whose #2 party was led by an openly anti-Semitic Leftist, it's surprising that your post focused so much on criticisms of Trump, some of which I agree with; but did not do much to put them in the context of the above Leftist agenda. Put in this proper context, these criticisms of Trump pale in comparison.
Another context that needs more focus is: what is the alternative? Many of the same criticisms of Trump apply to Joe Biden as well--past treatment of women, rudeness, etc.
Andy
Rabbi Slifkin,
ReplyDeleteWhy not write something acknowledging the unprecedented and inspiring display of achdus between leaders of Modern Orthodoxy, Chareidism and Dati Leumi going on at:
http://vayichan.com/mishmar/index.html
Another quibble with your post: proportion.
ReplyDeleteMany of us would reserve "speechless" for the idea that a modern liberal democracy (in many ways the birthplace of liberal democracy) could have as a serious candidate for Prime Minister a proud anti-Semite, Leftist, and open encourager of Jewish baby murderers.
In comparison with that, wouldn't Trump's uncouth behaviors, exaggerations, inconsistencies, etc, as enumerated in your post, rate on the opposite end of the spectrum? Maybe a troubled sigh, or a look of dismay?
Put another way: how did you respond to Corbyn's ascension? Wouldn't it have to be something like 10 million times "speechless"?
Andy
Did you not see my posts about Corbyn???
Delete"Speechless" is probably a 9.5 out of 10 on the appalled scale; there's not much more room for outrage after that.
ReplyDeleteAnd this is precisely what the Left is very good at: they constantly demonize their opponents, through lies, exxageration, and overblown rhetoric, so that people like you aren't quite black-and-white sure about the morality of voting for Trump, even if only to hold off our American Corbyns.
A large portion of Democratic primary votes went to Sanders. Sanders can't be accused of anti-Semitism; but make no mistake, he is identical with Corbyn when it comes to coddling Hamas and Hezbollah murderers of babies; and probably on Iran as well. And he might be even worse than Corbyn when it comes to the rest of the destructive Leftist agenda.
These votes for Sanders, beyond doubt, have a strong influence on Democrat party policy. So it is morally black and white: we must vote for Trump.
Andy
Trump's sometimes uncouth behavior, inconsistencies, exxagerations (yes, I acknowledge that these are forms of lying), past treatment of women, etc., are bad; but they pale to just about insignificance when faced with the crucial need to vote for him in order to block American Corbyns from G-d forbid gaining power.
ReplyDeleteDo you disagree with this statement?
Andy
I am very confused by your comment. What on earth did I write that would make you think that I disagree with your comment?
Delete"There are people who don't believe that any good person can vote for Trump. I'm not American, but I can totally understand it;...."
ReplyDeletePerhaps I misunderstood; but this statement sounds like you totally understand why someone would think that one cannnot morally vote for Trump, notwithstanding the fact that this is the only way to hold off the American Corbyns.
Andy