Wednesday, May 26, 2021
Subconscious Racism
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My, this is interesting. Rav Chaim Kanievsky ztz"l was proclaimed for many years to be the authoritative voice of Daas Torah . Countle...
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Some shockingly incriminating historical pieces of evidence have come to light regarding the cause of the Meron tragedy. (And to those who s... -
While Judaism has been around for thousands of years, it has changed in various ways over history. Concepts and beliefs changed. Certain thi...
"We were taught"? Perhaps those whose teachers are wacko American progressives.
ReplyDeleteThe truth is that all races think favorably of their own races compared to others.
Or maybe you are, yourself, of Palestinian descent,have close friends or family that are, or are Jewish and thus, have a closer connection to this particular conflict than you would to whatever is going on in China.
ReplyDeleteOr you just get worked up about whatever cause by is trending in the news and social media, and Gaza vs Israel is flavor of the week.
Doesn't explain the disparity in general.
DeleteNegative opinions about the State of Israel certainly can be influenced by Jew hatred.
ReplyDeleteBut don't forget that Judiasm and Jews are not the same thing as the State of Israel. The state of Israel is a political entity, not a faith or a people.
It is a fact that Jews have lived peacefully and FLOURISHED in Arab and Muslim lands for centuries.
It is also factual that Zionism changed the picture dramatically. It became much less safe for Jews ever since.
Chaulking it up to anti-semitism and nothing but, is idiotic.
The political State of Israel, not the religion or the people, is a big reason for the Jewish hate in the Arab and Muslim lands.
That's not to say that antisemitism doesn't exist. It does. But it is not the only reason for hating the State of Israel, as demonstrated by recent history.
Next. Its childish to asert as fact that antisemitism is the oldest and most persuasive hatred in the world - without presenting any proof.
Not at all inclined to demonstrate how you know this to be true or should we rely on your say so?
Obviously... using normal language. But please point to which Arab countries TODAY have flourishing Jewish communities in them? And how many countries FORCIBLY EXPELLED their Jews once the State of Israel was founded?
DeleteBring examples from the Rambam's time doesn't help.
And I agree that one should be more of a sociological scholar to make the claim that antisemitism is the oldest hatred in the world. But how about this: it's the oldest SURVIVING hatred. Cro-Magnon based Antineanderthalism probably existed, but not very much anymore. Athenian anti-Spartanism, Egyptian anti-Nubianism, Assyrian anti-Elamism all probably existed also. But hatred of the Jews? That still survives...
You live in quite the fantasy land, don't you? Jews have been persecuted by Muslims since the day the religion was founded- and by Arabs long before then. (Look up Sefer Ezra if you don't believe me.)
DeleteAlso, I hate to break it to you, but the State of Israel is far more than a "political entity." It is home to the largest Jewish population in the world and the existing expression of the Jewish homeland, between which and the Jewish people and religion there is an ancient and unbreakable link. You may not like that, but facts don't care what you like or dislike.
Jews were nowhere less safe than in Europe during the Holocaust, and Zionism had exactly zero to do with that.
Jews have been hated, intensely, for thousands of years. (And, again, Zionism had nothing to do with that. Neither did Islam, exclusively. I take it you've heard of the Egyptians, and Seleucids, and Romans, and Crusades, and Inquisition, and Chelminitsky, and pogroms.) Find me another people that's true of and we can debate whether anti-Semitism is unique.
Oh, and it's "chalking."
@Ezr
DeleteThere's a widespread myth to that effect. It has a kernel of truth in that things were never as bad for the Jews of the Anti-Muslim world as the Spanish Inquisition. That is a liw bar to clear.
The 19th century is illustrative. In Palestine, Jews could occasionally get protection in order to develop a village. However, that protection would be as ephemeral as the rule of a pasha, or that sasha's mood. Once retracted, the surrounding villages could demand that the Jews vacate within a day. Several times, such as 1860 in Hebron, the jews were simply massacred. All this was before the first aliyah of 1882, let alone the second aliyah following the first Zionist Congress of 1897.
Nachum,
DeleteI've noticed that your replies to comments aren't always fully logical.
I said that before Zionism, Jews flourished in Arab and Muslim lands.
You said, Jews have been persecuted by Muslims and Arabs since they existed.
Does that negate the truth that Jews flourished in Arab and Muslim lands? It does not.
What happened due to Zionism is that those lands became intolerable to Jews.
Before there were easier and tougher times, but the Jews managed and even flourished. No longer.
The land of Israel is home to millions of Jews. Yes. The state is still what it is. A political entity.
"The existing expression of the Jewish homeland" is a weird statement.
It is the existing political homeland in the Land of Israel.
You are saying that the political state of Israel is the existing reality.
(whatever "expression" means..as if the "expression" gives it some mystical allure).
Now this political reality (or "expression") that is home to millions of Jews could be good or could be bad. It could do some good things and some bad things. It could fluctuate in terms of how good or bad it is.
You urged me to open Sefer Ezra. You should open sefer yehoshua, shoftim, shmuel, malachm, yeshaya, yirmiyah, yechezkel, divrei hayamim, trei asar, as well as ezra/nechamaya...they reiterate again and again that we lost the land due to our many sins.
The POLITICAL ENTITY back then, which were the kings, too often caused Jews to sin. The land itself wasn't the saving grace.
It was given IF they would keep the Torah fully on the land, which they did for many years...but were derailed by the political entity.
So don't give me the "reality" as a proof of its excellence.
Jews aren't judged merely by homeland. Perhaps the Irish can be Irish for living in Ireland. Not us. We require adherence to Torah.
Living on the land is a Mitzvah! Rmbm says biblical, Rmbn says Rabinic these days. But there are hundreds of other mitzvos, some of which are more important, like Shabbos.
Finally, I never argued that anti semitism isn't real. I said that there are other factors that go into the mix when it comes to hating the political entity that is the State of Israel.
It depends where the hate is coming from and about what.
It's NOT ALWAYS just Jewish hate. There is political hate too.
And the state, where millions of Jews live, is very different from the Jewish people and very different from the religion.
@Ezra antisemitism "is the oldest and most persuasive hatred in the world." It is also the most universal form of hatred. Jews have suffered everywhere they went. How is that for proof? The Arab world is no better than the Nazis. Just because Hitler killed more does not make him worse. They are both equally as bad. For example, while Hitler killed 6 million Jews the Arabs kill one million. Again, the size of the number does not make the Arabs "better." Arguably, they're a lot worse. The SS officer will not give up his arm to kill ten thousand Jews. He will not even take a scar to the face. But the Arab will not only give up his arm, but he will also offer ten of his children!
DeleteHatred of Israel is antisemitism when those same people hating Israel say that a Jewish state ought not to exist.
There is only one reason why liberals such as Ilhan Omar side with terrorists. It's because they are evil.
Ezra, how do you explain the 1929 Hebron massacre.
DeleteAh, I see. Seven million Jews mean nothing to you. Hope you're happy in Williamsburg or Cambridge or wherever you are.
DeleteThe NYT article sums up your meme: www.nytimes.com/2019/03/21/opinion/palestinian-protests-gaza-strip-hamas.amp.html
ReplyDeletewhat about the 500K syrians killed in the civil war and the 12 million displaced
ReplyDeleteBLM and pro-Palestine work together to tear down Israel and the West. Thus, it is no surprise that BLM parrots Hamas's charter to destroy the State of Israel. The Left media garbage lies and says that while there are anti-semitic attacks going on around the country, Islamophobia is also prevalent. Point to me one instance of Islamophobia. Of course, you know what they would day. They would call supporting Israel Islamophobia. The Leftists liberal politicians side with terrorists because they're evil.
ReplyDeleteMemes are cute but it is obvious that democracies are held to a higher standard than dictatorships.
ReplyDeleteOne can argue that we can apply the rule of "dayo lavo min hadin lih'yos k'nidon (or k'nadun - I've heard it both ways)" - we cannot make a kal vachomer in which we make an unmeasureable leap of speculation on the deduction side. Therefore, we cannot say, "since democracies must better than dictatorships, then there should be zero civilian casualties." All that is logically permissible is "since democracies must be better than dictatorships, there should be civilian casualties that are NO WORSE than those in dictatorships." Otherwise, one ends up setting arbitrarily absurd goals.
DeleteThe United States kills far more civilians, both proportionately and in terms of actual numbers, in various attacks than Israel does. In Afghanistan, Iraq, etc. Same goes for a lot of Western powers. And that's been true for centuries.
DeleteYou won't see me condemning it. There are those who do, but they don't seem to get as fired up about it as they do about Israel.
In any event, it's a tired cliche. Human life is human life. And yet we related to China as if it was a civilized country, trade extensively with it, and treat any criticism of it (for example, saying the obvious truth that covid came from there) as racism.
@Yosef R, your application of "dayo" is absurd. One can certainly ascertain truths by context and comparison EVEN if the method (Kal vchomer) doesn't conclusively PROVE it. A normal epstimological standard would never ask for that.
DeleteMaybe for White Anglo Saxon Protestants. For those of Arabic origin a simpler explanation would be tribalism.
ReplyDeleteYeah, because Arabs care so much when Arabs anywhere else are persecuted (by other Arabs, that is).
DeleteIf you only care about your own when *others* are persecuting them, yeah, that's a form of tribalism, but the sort that has crossed the line into hating others more than just loving yourself.
The seeds of antisemitism are sprouting not just in the US.
ReplyDelete