And so it begins. The consequences for the charedim of not being in the government have started. Avigdor Lieberman has announced that government subsidies of daycare for families in which the mother is working but the father learns in kollel will end. They will only continue for families in which both parents are either working or enrolled in training/ education programs.
Is this a good idea? It's not clear. It's a very complicated matter, and I personally certainly don't understand all the aspects or ramifications (and I think that the same is true for many people who nevertheless have outspoken opinions).
Of course the situation of mass kollel is wrong, against traditional Judaism, harmful to the charedi community, and dangerous to the entire country. It should be dismantled, not subsidized. And we're talking about 400 million shekels annually, which is a lot of
money for the State to spend on something that is detrimental to
national economic welfare. (Some have also raised concerns regarding where this money actually goes.)
But it's not entirely clear that stopping these subsidies at very short notice is the right way to change things. How are all these thousands of charedi men supposed to enter the job market at such short notice? On the other hand, if they can't find a job, then they can always look after the kids, instead of being in kollel. There's no reason why the State should pay for that.
Still, as I said, I do not know all the factors and ramifications. It might well be that Lieberman is doing something wrong, something foolish, or both. It could be like Lieberman's stated desire to immediately draft all the charedim into the army, which might also be wrong and is certainly foolish. It's true that the charedi exemption from military service is itself very wrong; as we just heard from the greatest Gadol B'Torah in history, there is no justification for an entire sector of the population to avoid sharing the burden of military service. But at the same time, it's also wrong to suddenly insist on drafting people who have always been allowed to be psychologically entirely unprepared for it, and it's foolish to think that it's actually practically feasible.
But one thing that I do know is this. Most of the charedim who are screaming about the evil of Lieberman's actions do not have a moral leg to stand on. It reminds me of when people in the Orthodox community were outraged at those who were reporting abuse to the press. If there's a problem that you're not fixing, you can't complain when other people try to fix it in ways that you don't like.
The structure of charedi society, in which there is mass deliberate unemployment, very few professional careers, and very little secular education, is a terrible, disastrous, dangerous problem. For all the talk about how charedi society is changing, and the new programs and new schools, the fact is that these are a drop in the bucket; the change is not anywhere near broad enough or fast enough.
Furthermore, most charedim - certainly the Gedolim and MKs - are not even trying to change the system! The only reason that anything at all is happening is that there is a rare situation of a government in which charedim are not members. And it's a situation which is unlikely to last for long. You can't really blame Lieberman for wanting to make changes while there is a rare chance to do so.
It can't be said enough times; as even Jonathan Rosenblum has acknowledged in Mishpacha magazine, the charedi community is driving the entire country towards economic ruin and consequent loss of national security. Together with their Likud partners, they were doing this unchecked for years. Given all this, I don't think that anyone is in a position to criticize those who are trying to change things while they can.
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"It's true that the charedi exemption from military service is itself very wrong; as we just heard from the greatest Gadol B'Torah in history, there is no justification for an entire sector of the population to avoid sharing the burden of military service."
ReplyDeleteWho is this Gadol you refer to?
The one whose status is incontrovertible. You heard his words yourself.
DeleteThe one who said מחלליה מות יומת about something most of your beloved society is constantly violating? And much more? Yeah, that one. Do you take everything he says seriously or just the "tikkun olam" parts that you like?
Deleteמלחמת מצוה?
DeleteHappy, again with the equivalencing? This issue, the passuk says "VaAtem Teshvu Po" while "Acheichem" go fight?
DeleteThere are LOTS of issues to clear up. But the government is not the religious police. The government is there to help the populace be safe and thrive. Reducing a huge financial drain is a goal.
You want to work on Chillul Shabbos? Many of us will stand with you on that.
Yosef, my (and Ezra's) response was to the alleged support for the draft from the greatest Gadol Hador. The support is intended to be a religious one, from the Torah. I just pointed out that there are many other religious matters that are of, shall we say, more pressing importance, that our host never seems to care about.
DeleteAs for whether the government should be the religious police, we disagree. If you are making a "Jewish State", it must be run according to the Torah. Now, that may or may not be feasible before Moshiach comes. But when your "Jewish State" is run by mechallelei Shabbos and atheists, then don't invoke support for your rules from the Torah. It's a complete joke.
As for the financial drain, the secular government can cut off support to chareidim completely, if they want to. Nothing is stopping them. And that's exactly what they're doing. I predict the chareidim will be very resourceful and find ways to thrive regardless, im yirtzeh Hashem. The pennyless, bedraggled, immigrant ancestors of the chareidim had it much, much worse.
Eh, still an off the topic thing. But never mind - we can disagree about the necessity - or the viability - of an actual Torah true government from today until tomorrow.
DeleteTo respond to you last paragraph: YES! Halevai! May the chareidim be very resourceful and come up with ways to be financially independent, much as their ancestors, who had it worse, were able to do. Their ancestors became water carriers and innkeepers, carriage drivers and laborers. I'm sure they will be able to find jobs as well. Glad we agree on this.
Yosef, I also agree that it would be better to for chareidim to work. And I think it is inevitable.
DeleteBut here's the thing. To the extent that chareidim become independent, will that stop the hostility of the anti-chareidim, or further inflame it? What was the hostility about all along? Was it all about the measly stipends that they get? Was the problem of army service really that the army needs more labour, or that the chareidim, in refusing to serve, refuse to accept the legitimacy of the state? To me, it's obvious that it's the latter. This is clear from a historical perspective, that even back in Europe, there was terrible strife between the chareidim and the maskilim/Zionists. And it's easy to see on this blog, where the host wastes no opportunity to attack the chassidim of NY with the same vehemence that he attacks chareidim, despite the fact that they work, and there is no army service issue.
The source of this hostility is not the measly stipends or army service per se, but rather the separatism of the chareidim/chassidim and their rejection of secularism. That they reject the modern world. That they reject secular education and values, that the secularists hold dear. And worst of all, that they view the secularists as less Jewish. And their state as illegitimate. It is like hot needles in the secularist's eyes. And this separatism won't change when the chareidim are forced to become more independent. Just like with the chassidim of NY, who are far more independent, yet extremely separatist. If anything, independence will probably exacerbate the issue.
If the current regime holds, rather than chareidim becoming the enlightened modern Jews our host seems to think they will be, it's much more likely that they will become like the chassidim of NY. They will not start teaching secular education. They will not start believing in evolution or dinosaurs. They will not go to college. They will not have equality for women. They will not accept the legitimacy of Zionism. Nor the secularists as full Jews. The only thing that will change is that they will be forced to be more independent. Which far from integrating them, will cause them to reject the state even further. They will develop their own insular economy. Their own state within a state. Which will grow. Think of a much more powerful, much larger scale version of Neturei Karta/ Eida Chareidis.
So you see, although increased independence for the chareidim is probably inevitable, it won't make the secularists happy at all. You and I may say halevai, but they will not.
https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/.premium-secular-israeli-fear-of-the-ultra-orthodox-has-turned-into-hatred-1.8349346
In short, because I was rather lengthy: Increased independence won't kill the chareidim, it will make them stronger. But not stronger in the way that secularists would like. Rather, stronger in the opposite direction. Just like we see with the far more independent chassidim of the US, who maintain their extreme separatism. And these independent chareidim will be a much greater threat to the secularists than the chareidim as they exist now.
Delete"as we just heard from the greatest Gadol B'Torah in history, there is no justification for an entire sector of the population to avoid sharing the burden of military service" - Who did we hear this from? When?
ReplyDeleteCome on... you heard him yourself! Yesterday!
Delete"as we just heard from the greatest Gadol B'Torah in history, there is no justification for an entire sector of the population to avoid sharing the burden of military service."
ReplyDeleteThat was when the army was run by Shomrei Torah, you can't apply that to a time when the army is run by atheists who don't care about the Torah.
Okay, so you say that IDF service is too costly for charedim. So how are they going to make it up in other ways?
DeleteHow about with what Rav Kook suggested:
Deleteעל כן תלמידי החכמים העוסקים בתורה הם הם מגינים על הארץ ועוזרים להצלחת הנשק הלאומי, לא פחות וגם יותר מכל החיל הלוחם
That was said regarding joining the British Army. See https://orot.ac.il/sites/default/files/amadot/1-02.pdf
DeleteI am aware that it is talking about the British army. That's irrelevant. I wasn't quoting Rav Kook to explain why chareidim shouldn't be drafted in Eretz Yisroel. You asked how chareidim can make it up in other ways. Rav Kook says that Torah study contributes to a military at least as much as actual soldiers. If Torah study contributes to a British military there's no reason why it wouldn't contribute to a military in Eretz Yisroel.
DeleteAnd yet Rav Kook felt that yeshivah students SHOULD be drafted in a Jewish state.
DeleteAnd yet other, equally great, or greater Rabbis felt they shouldn't be drafted, even in a "Jewish State". Your point?
DeleteRav Kook never said a word about drafting yeshiva students in a Jewish state.
DeleteRead the linked article above, about Rav Kook.
DeleteI read the article. According to the article Rav Kook wrote in a commentary on the Rambam that although the Rambam says that Shevet Levi does not go to war, a war waged by the entire Jewish people would be different. He never said anything about drafting Yeshiva students in the modern state of Israel.
DeleteLY: You expansively read Rav Kook's WWI letter (which did not fall under a halachic מלחמת מצוה) & apply it to the State.
DeleteYet when Rav Kook writes:
אבל כשכל ישראל יוצאין למלחמה, מחוייבים גם הם לצאת.
ומלחמה של כלל
ישראל זאת היא גם כן עבודת ד', שכל מי שהוא מיוחד יותר לעבודת ד' הוא שייך לה
יותר משאר כל העם
you give a rather narrow reading and apply unwarranted chilukim.
It's obvious that Israel's wars are a case of כשכל ישראל יוצאין למלחמה.
(What's remarkable about Rav Kook's statement is that the phrase כל ישראל יוצאין למלחמה indicates that it would include a מלחמת רשות!)
Ephraim:
Delete"It's obvious that Israel's wars are a case of כשכל ישראל יוצאין למלחמה."
I didn't say they're not. I said that you can't draft yeshiva students to an army that is run by atheists who don't care about the Torah.
My purpose in quoting Rav Kook's letter was just in response to R' Slifkin's question on my original comment: "Okay, so you say that IDF service is too costly for charedim. So how are they going to make it up in other ways?" To which I quoted Rav Kook because he says that studying Torah also contributes to the success of the army.
"I didn't say they're not. I said that you can't draft yeshiva students to an army that is run by atheists who don't care about the Torah."
DeleteIs the army really run by atheists who don't care about the Torah? I don't know. All I know is that the secular media has been harping for over a decade about how the Orthodox are going to take over the IDF. Circumstances have changed. The fact is that there really is no cantonist threat. It's time to get over these antiquated tropes that are not longer relevant.
"as we just heard from the greatest Gadol B'Torah in history, there is no justification for an entire sector of the population to avoid sharing the burden of military service"
ReplyDeleteMoshe Rabbeinu would not have sent anyone to Tzahal who are trying to shmad up the chareidim. (Their own words albeit not verbatim.) and no 'Nachal chareidi' doesn't cut it.
The Gadol B'Torah had other things to say too. He spoke about keeping Shabbos, eating only kosher, not rounding the corners of the head (certain prohibited hair styles)…he had a lot more to say...
ReplyDeleteHe said to destroy all idolatry that is found in the Land of Israel. He said that homosexuality is a grave sin. He spoke about capital punishments for many immoral acts and for profaning Shabbos and many other things. And he didn't make any of it up. Hashem told it to him.
So now you have little leiberman yms"h and many of the other left wing atheists and heretics who violate every command of Moshe.
But you love them to the point that you quote about how Moshe told Reuven, Gad, and half of Menashe that they dare not skip war, and how that also means that there is no justification nowadays not to be enlisted in the Israeli army.
What about all the other commands of Moshe? That we don't talk about, right?
And besides, that war was completely different. They had an express command from Hashem to eradicate the wicked inhabitants of Canaan.
Oh, and the military in the times of Moshe and Yehoshua kept the Torah. The Israeli army however mostly disdains the Torah. Yes, its true. Immorality is rampant there.
In short, and as can be expected, you rattle off some silly analogy to our times that completely misses the boat. Of-course its not surprising in the least.
He said that homosexuality is a grave sin.
DeleteThe Torah never mentions homosexuality. Not even once. I feel that once someone makes that claim, they've outed themselves as a Christian.
Avi's point aside, on the whole this is a good response to R Slifkin.
DeleteWhat a dumb comment. By that logic you don't have to keep kosher since secular Israelis don't keep taharos mishpacha. What's the connection?
DeleteWhat's your point? Do you really mean to differentiate between homosexuality and homosexual acts? There is very little practical difference, and you know that. That's a disingenuous argument. (I am not speaking to any of the points in the post or to the comments responding to the post. Only to this nonsense, which I primarily hear from proponents of Open Orthodoxy.)
DeleteThen how would you interpret this (Vayikra 20:13):
Deleteוְאִ֗ישׁ אֲשֶׁ֨ר יִשְׁכַּ֤ב אֶת־זָכָר֙ מִשְׁכְּבֵ֣י אִשָּׁ֔ה תּֽוֹעֵבָ֥ה עָשׂ֖וּ שְׁנֵיהֶ֑ם מ֥וֹת יוּמָ֖תוּ דְּמֵיהֶ֥ם בָּֽם
Excellent response, Ezra.
DeleteThat posik can be interpreted that only when they do it as "a man and wife". Meaning the Torah forbids Gay Marriage but not gay acts between 2 non married people
Delete@Asher
DeleteThere is a very deep and clear-cut difference between homosexuality and homosexual acts.
If you believe the Torah is against ''homosexuality'', then it means a whole bunch of people get ostracized just for who they are.
But if you recognize that the Torah only spoke about the act, then first you can start by trying to understand what's wrong with this act and how the Torah asks us to refrain from it.
And second you can then see these people as our brothers, who face hardships that, thanks G.d, we don't know and can hardly describe to ourselves, and that's a big step out of homophobia.
Well Chazal don't learn it your way.
DeleteChaim Eluzer the passuk clearly says "ASHER YISHKAV" (that sleeps) it doesn't say anything about marriage. Besides there is no such thing as gay marriage in the Torah for the same reason that there is no marriage between brother and sister
Delete@Jew well
DeleteI'm not talking about whether it is a sin for a man to feel attraction toward another man. If you want to say that that isn't a sin, fine. I'm talking about accepting homosexual relationships under the guise of differentiating between the relationship (ok) and the act (not ok). That's hogwash.
So according to Chaim Eluzer, the halacha forbids straight non-married men and women to cohabitate, but non-married gay men can enjoy themselves however they please? How ridiculous. You know what you're saying is not true
DeleteAvi said, "I feel that once someone makes that claim, they've outed themselves as a Christian."
DeleteNo, they're just bad at semantics.
The IDF is the most moral army in the world.
DeleteIt's Moshe Rabeinu, not less.
ReplyDelete"...Acheichem Yelchu LaMilchomo veAtem Teshvu Po?"
Ironically, a few years ago, Charedim in New York used that pasuk on a sign encouraging people to join a protest against Charedim being drafted.
DeleteOn the other hand, if they can't find a job, then they can always look after the kids, instead of being in kollel. There's no reason why the State should pay for that.
ReplyDeleteCan you explain why this same reasoning would not apply to University students (who Liberman has for some reason found to eligible to receive child care)?
Why is their study more worthy of subsidies, then Torah study?
Because they are training to be economically productive.
DeleteAha, so every university student is being trained to be "economically productive"!
DeleteHad you limited that to certain fields, it would be one thing. But you don't. University studies includes all fields including humanities and a host of other fields which have nothing to do with being "economically productive".
In other words, you have once again proven to be intellectually dishonest. This is of course no surprise to anyone.
I am not even getting involved in practical discussions, how this new policy is elf destructive, and only cause state coffers to have a net loss then a net gain. But that is already another story.
"Aha, so every university student is being trained to be "economically productive"!
DeleteNot "every", but most. And having a modest number of people in various fields of scholarship - including Torah - is also valuable.
A society needs people who earn money. It also needs intellectuals to help it shape its ideologies and world representations. Someone who dedicates his life to study abstract ideas or ancient societies, is also very useful. And someone who studies Torah, an occupation that, along with keeping it, has effectively kept the jewish people alive to this day, is worthy of more consideration than these populist rants. I wouldn't expect more from Liebermann, but please, Rabbi Slifkin, think about the way you write. Being economically productive isn't and never was the ultimate goal of humanity.
DeleteCorrect, being economically productive is not a goal for humanity. But it is a requirement for society. Hence all Chazal's statements about the importance of work.
DeleteI'm not against the idea, I just don't like the way you carelessly parrot him.
DeleteFor all those who think Ezra's response is a good one, see my response upthread - the purpose of the gov't is not religious observance.
DeleteThe blog has lost its way, but it's fascinating to follow the evolution of RNS views.
ReplyDeleteIt's a fool's errand to try to use halachic, pasuk-based or even economic arguments with people who are literally trying to justify letting others do all the dying for them.
ReplyDeleteQuite simply, the more monstrous and outrageously immoral a position is, the more desperate and outlandish the arguments used to defend it will be. This has always been true of the arguments used by representatives of the Charedi world to justify their draft-dodging and non-participation in the Israeli economy. Those arguments have included –
1 – “But the army doesn’t want us.” This is apparently said with a straight face by some people. As if it were the job of the army to choose who it wants and who it doesn’t. Maybe it would be easier if there were no frum people in the army at all, taking away the pesky need for kashrut. The army doesn’t get to decide. The State decides, via its elected representatives, and basic fairness is a major factor.
2 - “But the army doesn’t need us.” As if adding 30% to the pool of potential human resources for the army wouldn’t make life easier on everyone else and raise the standards of the army, in terms of the physical and mental quality of the people who could be drafted and assigned to where they’re most useful.
3 – Representatives of the Charedi world have pointed to the Arab citizens of Israel and said “But you don’t make them serve! What about them?!”. I am not making this up. One example that comes to mind was MK Meir Porush on Israel radio a few years ago. Does it really need to be pointed out that Arabs who identify with the Palestinian cause are not the equivalent of Charedim?
4 -The completely novel idea that learning Torah (or being signed up in Yeshivot) somehow absolves an entire community of its duty to share the burden with the rest of the country.
Etc.
So the arguments we’re seeing here and on the FB thread must be seen in this context. When attempting to justify monstrous behavior, people will sometimes be force to make ridiculous arguments. And there’s very little point in arguing with them using halacha or psukim.
Charedim are trying to preserve Judaism and this explains there behaviour. Since יציאת מצרים our national behaviour throughout history has been characterized by our inability to live by the Torah. Sending 18 year old Charedim to the army will change the world view of the majority. The same is true about going out to work in the secular society. This is what is behind the bizarre arguments of the Charedi representatives.
DeleteAny religion is in a weak position when it has to confront the modern world, but Judaism seems to be especially so. This, I think, is on account of the Jewish high IQ. At the end of the day, with all the shortcomings, the meshugasen and being far from ideal, it's the best way for the survival of Judaism.
How poorly the chareidim educate their youth, how weak their emunah if the mere exposure to army life will lead to shmad and heresy. probably the Army woudl do a better job of inculcating jewish pride and discipline than any chareidi yeshiva....
DeleteUnknown: The D"L world is struggling with the issue of a large percentage of their soldiers leaving Torah observance, so your criticism is unwarranted.
DeleteYehoshua:
DeleteThe DL world is struggling ...
While charedi world just pretends it doesn't exists. Of course, they don't have the army to get in their way
Of course, their parents and siblings still struggle.
What's not appreciated enough is how evil some people are.
ReplyDeleteI am against the mass kollel concept, but I'm also no dummy. I know that little Avigdor is a slimy rat. These people that have been put into government are treasonous rats and scumbags. Sorry, they just are. So they will harm Jews because it is what they do.
"Unity government" lol
Just more of the leftwing establishment's propaganda.
Enjoy those newly recognized Bedouin towns built illegally on stolen land while Jewish building in settlements remains frozen.
In contrast to other areas of the state, the Chareidi parties have never invested in the army to make it suitable for mainstream Chareidim (putting Nachal Chareidi aside). There are so many other areas which have been adapted to fall in line with and accommodate Chareidi needs. Whatever one's views of Chareidim joining the army as it currently stands, I've always thought that if the Chareidi parties would choose to adapt the army to their needs then it would make Chareidi army conscription that much easier.
ReplyDeleteHow about this. The army, only for chareidim. No non-chareidim are allowed to join. Or at least, nobody who is not devoutly shomer Torah U'mitzvos. Nobody who has not already spent several years in yeshiva. Same rules as the frummest yeshivas. Anybody caught being mechallel Shabbos, or even watching a movie, dishonorably discharged. No women. This adaptation, I feel chareidim could (possibly) get behind.
DeleteTo dishonorably discharge someone is a pretty big charge. You can't dishonorably discharge someone for violating Shabbat. And of course woman should join the army. What are you even talking about?
DeleteI was just giving a scenario of how chareidim myght be ok joyning the army.
Delete'It might well be that Lieberman is doing something wrong, something foolish, or both'.
ReplyDeleteIf you think his goal is to effectively encourage kollel students to join the workforce, then yes, this move is utterly stupid and useless, apart from being the opposite of what Bennett said. People will bring their kids to cheaper private, and sometimes 'black market' childcare, and move on, ever more persuaded that the state is crusading against them, which will hinder every better attempt in the future.
But we all know Liebermann doesn't care. What he really cares about is becoming prime minister, and right now, the more harsh he is against charedim, the more people will vote for him.
RDNS, I am with you on most things. But in yesterday's Torah reading, you surely noticed that Shevet Levi also didn't go to war against Midyan (despite that too being a milchemet mitzvah, and despite them being an entire segment of the popoulation). I am not making the mistaken all Kollelim = Shevet Levi equation, but sir - not your strongest proof...
ReplyDeletewrong.... kohanim and leviim were specifically assigned to the troops...
DeleteSource? Not the pesukim.
DeleteDo you mean the kohen meshuach milchama (in our case here, Chazal say that was Pinchas)? One token leader does not account for the entire tribe being singled out as uninvolved quite clearly.
'As we just heard from the greatest Gadol B'Torah in history, there is no justification for an entire sector of the population to avoid sharing the burden of military service.'
ReplyDeleteNothing to do with a draft over there, there was a specific mission at hand, and every tribe was supposed to keep its internal orgnization at war. Charedis have already demonstated their readiness to help when that was needed.
But this state insists on conscription, and then allows entire sectors (not just charedis) to dodge it. Just switch to a professional army and that's it, I solved the whole problem of so-called 'yoke equality' in the blink of an eye. Ah but no, you don't understand, we need a citizen-in-arms model because blah blah blah, we are nationalists and therefore we must build a new jewish society where we no longer are sheep brought to slaughter, but proud, strong, zionist ary... sorry, sabras. QED.
מגירסא דינקותא
ReplyDeleteכָּל הָעוֹשֶׂה מִצְוָה אַחַת,
מְטִיבִין לוֹ,
וּמַאֲרִיכִין לוֹ יָמָיו,
וְנוֹחֵל אֶת הָאָרֶץ;
וְכָל שֶׁאֵינוֹ עוֹשֶׂה מִצְוָה אַחַת,
אֵין מְטִיבִין לוֹ,
וְאֵין מַאֲרִיכִין לוֹ יָמָיו,
וְאֵינוֹ נוֹחֵל אֶת הָאָרֶץ.
כָּל שֶׁיֶּשְׁנוֹ בְּמִקְרָא וּבְמִשְׁנָה וּבְדֶרֶךְ אֶרֶץ,
לֹא בִּמְהֵרָה הוּא חוֹטֵא;
שֶׁנֶּאֱמַר: "וְהַחוּט הַמְשֻׁלָּשׁ לֹא בִמְהֵרָה יִנָּתֵק" (קהלת ד, יב).
וְכָל שֶׁאֵינוֹ לֹא בְּמִקְרָא,
וְלֹא בְּמִשְׁנָה,
וְלֹא בְּדֶרֶךְ אֶרֶץ,
אֵינוֹ מִן הַיִּשּׁוּב:
נוסח הרמב"ם
[עריכה]
כל העושה מצוה אחת מטיבין לו ומאריכין את ימיו ונוחל את הארץ וכל שאינו עושה מצוה אחת אין מטיבין לו ואין מאריכין את ימיו ואינו נוחל את הארץ וכל שאינו לא במקרא ולא במשנה ולא בדרך ארץ אין זה מן היישוב והמחזיק בשלשתן עליו הכתוב אומר והחוט המשולש לא במהרה יינתק (קוהלת ד,יב).
פירוש הרמב"ם
[עריכה]
כל העושה מצוה אחת מטיבין לו כו': כל שישנו במקרא ובמשנה ובדרך ארץ כו': רוצה לומר באמרו כל העושה מצוה אחת שיעשה אותה יתירה על זכיותיו שהיו נגד עונותיו עד שחזרו זכיותיו מרובין מעונותיו בזאת המצוה ואמר כל שאינו עושה מצוה אחת ר"ל מי שעוונותיו מרובין מזכיותיו ולא עשה מצוה אחת כדי להשוותם אלא נשארו עונותיו מרובין מזכיותיו. אמר מטיבין ומאריכין את ימיו בעולם הזה וענין נוחל את הארץ ארץ החיים רוצה לומר העולם הבא ואנו עתידין לבאר אותו בסנהדרין בפרק עשירי: ודרך ארץ הוא חבורת בני אדם חבורה טובה בנחת ובמוסר: וענין אין זה מן הישוב שאין תועלת בו בישוב העולם אבל להוציאו מן המקום תועלת למדינה ואמרו באדם שאלו מעשיו מושבו מושב לצים ופסול לעדות:
For those who read Hebrew, topical comments from Chaim Navon:
ReplyDeleteחמש הערות על ביטול ההנחה במעונות ילדים לאברכים:
1. האם זהו צעד כלכלי ענייני, או שמא ניסיון של שר האוצר לקטוף דיבידנד פוליטי מצד שונאי החרדים? ואולי ניסיון להפעיל לחץ על המפלגות החרדיות, כדי שיצטרפו לקואליציה?
2. אם מדובר בצעד ענייני, הוא חייב להיות מיושם בהדרגה. אי אפשר לדרוש ממשפחה ענייה תשלום של אלפי שקלים לכל חודש, בהתראה של חודש וחצי.
3. אם זה צעד ענייני, כלפי אנשים שאינם מכשירים עצמם לשוק העבודה, הוא צריך להיות מלווה בהבחנה דומה לגבי סטודנטים: לא כל תחומי הלימוד באוניברסיטה מכשירים אדם לשוק העבודה, ואם מחליטים שאין הנחות לאדם שחשקה נפשו בתורה - קל וחומר לגבי אדם שחשקה נפשו בפילוסופיה סינית. מצד שני, גם בתוך עולם התורה יש שמכשירים עצמם לעבוד ככלי קודש - מורים, דיינים ורבנים; וברור שאין סיבה שלא יקבלו את ההנחה שיקבלו לומדי משפטים באוניברסיטה.
4. הפחתת ההנחה לאברכים צריכה להתבצע בהדרגה, בהבנה ובתבונה; אך במבט כולל, יש בה היגיון. ההנחה הזו יצרה תמריץ מעוות לשימור אורח חיים שאינו בר קיימא מבחינה חברתית ולאומית. התפיסה שכל גבר צריך לבלות עשורים מחייו בלימוד, כאשר בדרך כלל אין הוא אפילו מלמד אחרים, שונה מאוד מהאופן שבו חז"ל הציגו לנו את לימוד התורה. אם אין קמח אין תורה, ויפה תלמוד תורה עם דרך ארץ, וצאו וראו מה אמרו חז"ל על מי שלומד תורה שלא על מנת ללמדה. בנוסף לכל זה צריך לזכור שקשה מאוד, מבחינה מוסרית ומעשית גם יחד, לכפות על כל אזרחי המדינה לממן אורח חיים המוני שאין הם מאמינים בו. הרבה ישראלים לא מכירים בערכה של תורה. זה מצער, אך זו עובדה; ולא סביר לכפות עליהם לממן במסיהם אורח חיים קבוצתי המוני, שאין הם מאמינים בו. הרבה מאוד ישראלים כן מכירים בערכה של תורה, אך סבורים שמעולם בכל תולדותינו לא תורגם ערך לימוד התורה למסלול חיים שבו כל הגברים מוכוונים אך ורק ללמוד, כמקובל בחלקים גדולים מהציבור הליטאי היום. זה לא יכול לעבוד.
5. לסיכום, אני לא בטוח בטוהר כוונותיו של ליברמן, ולא בטוח שהמדיניות המוצהרת אכן תינקט לאורך זמן. מה שכן, זו עוד תזכורת קטנה כלפי החברה החרדית: אורח החיים שהיה סביר לקבוצה זעירה, הופך להיות בלתי-סביר כשמדובר במגזר גדול וחשוב.
I don't know why the government does not move to pass a law stating anyone not for-filling his duty to defend the country loses his right to vote. It should become a misdemeanor not to join, and the punishment is his right to vote. Don't do your duty and don't reap the benefits of a citizen in good standing.
ReplyDeleteIn America, we take away the right to vote if you are convicted of a crime. In other words you broke our laws, you are now not a good citizen and lose your voting rights.
Why is it that no one is pushing for that? I think that would be a fair compromise.
Because as the law currently stands there is no such duty. The yeshiva students who do not serve are complying 100% with the law.
DeleteWhat about my neighbor who served in the army band? He was in the army... not exactly "filling his duty to defend the country".... Or Lapid... worked in the "news corp"... again... not exactly "filling his duty to defend the country"....
DeleteA recent report by the Central Bureau of Statistics revealed that the State's investment in national cultural events covers only 18% of their costs. The rest – 82% - is funded by the public.
ReplyDeleteFrom Ynet: https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4275605,00.html
The government's budget for culture and sports events on a national level came to NIS 43.6 billion (approx. $10.8 billion) in 2011, which are 4.9% of Israel's GPD.
'We will take responsibility for the education of Israeli children from birth. The most formative years. As a first step, we will transfer responsibility for infant daycare to the Ministry of Education.'
ReplyDeleteNaftali Bennet, swearing-in speech, June 13, 2021.
Your post (as usual, I'm sorry to say) is thoroughly dishonest, summed up perfectly by your misrepresentation of Jonathan Rosenblum, claiming he "has acknowledged the charedim is leading the country to economic ruin and consequent loss of national security." As has been pointed out before: your writing is riddled with such lies, half-truths, and misrepresentations. It's not persuasive, it's embarrassing. Can't you argue your point without resorting to שקר?
ReplyDeleteDo the Charedim present certain thorny problems? Of course. No one, least of the all the Charedim themselves, ever said otherwise. But if the left and "diversity" has taught us anything, it is that everyone has problems, and no group is better than any other. So Charedim have problems - as do the irreligious, the DL, the Russians, the Gentiles, the men, the women, the young and the old, and any other demographic you can think of. To focus on the Charedim alone, as though they alone had issues, is just a form of anti-semitism.
Having acknowledged that they (like all groups) have problems, your specific allegation - they don't contribute to the economy - is utterly absurd in the extreme. Its amazing that you sit there in Israel enjoying the benefits of a Jewish environment, with religious opportunities all around you, and bite the hand that created it. You dont have to be part of them, but to constantly hurl insults at them from the sidelines as you do, like Shimei ben Gera - talk about בפוי טובה...
I agree. The charedim community should work and join the army, too. We all have to work.
ReplyDelete