While in New York they are making a fuss about chassidim not getting a general education, here in Israel it's infinitely worse. At least in New York, the chassidim only harm themselves (with indirect harm to the wider Jewish community as a result of the inevitable backlash to exposés of fraud). But in Israel, where the charedim are fully a third of first-graders and increasing, the lack of secular education doesn't just cause a disastrous cycle of poverty in charedi communities - it's a threat to the entire country. Jonathan Rosenblum, in his all-time most important column in Mishpacha, pointed out that both the IDF and the national economy requires a high proportion of the population to have professional careers. Unless there is some sort of fundamental change in charedi society, the country is doomed.
Such changes are incredibly difficult to make happen. Some people like to say that "change happens from within," but that sort of change, while it is happening, is taking place far too slowly to stop the impending national disaster. If one charedi kid in each family enrolls in some sort of education or training program, that still leaves five who don't.
But the Bennett-Lapid government, among other extraordinary accomplishments, managed to make a significant change. The Belz chassidic network of schools agreed, for the first time, to incorporate the core curriculum, in exchange for additional funding. The significance of this cannot be adequately stressed. It was a sea change in chareid society and a harbinger of hope for both reducing charedi poverty and for saving the country.
Nevertheless, the Lithuanian charedi community firmly opposed it. (It's interesting that whereas in the US it's the chassidim rather than the Litvaks who are more closed to secular education, here in Israel it's the opposite.) Consequently, the political union of Agudas Yisrael (the Chassidim) with Degel HaTorah (the Litvaks) was going to break apart. And there was a chance that one of those parties would fail to cross the electoral threshold in the forthcoming elections.
Enter Bibi. He loves having the charedi parties in his coalition, since they will do whatever he wants as long as throws money at them to subsidize their economically non-viable communities, just as they did with the Gaza withdrawal. Bibi was very worried about the prospect of a charedi party not crossing the electoral threshold. So, in order to avoid them splitting up, he offered that all charedi schools will receive full funding even if they don't teach any secular studies. Which means, of course, that there will no longer be any incentive for Belz to make their curricular change.
It's appalling. There was finally a path out of poverty for the charedim and for Israel, and Bibi went and ruined it out of his lust for power. After having received this offer, the charedim will never join any coalition unless they are given this same offer.
Bibi has accomplished many great things for the State of Israel. But this may prove to be his most devastating act of damage.
I think it should be mentioned here that most Charedi elementary schools for boys will teach Hebrew grammar, math, and a little bit of science, up to 7th grade.
ReplyDelete(The question is about introducing core curriculum studies in yeshiva katanah, for young men ages 13-15, and after that.)
A bigger problem is English, which isn't taught at all in the vast majority of Charedi boys' schools.
DeleteThere is no chance of introducing secular studies in the Yeshiva Ketanas - in elementary school they already teach some, so it shouldn't be such a big deal to improve the arithmetic and add English.
That is true but misleading. While they do teach those subject up to 7th grade, it is not on the level of what other students (e.g., chareidi girls) are learning. Also, English was not on that list, and that is a critical subject.
DeleteMy son used the book series חשב נא for math, up to 6th grade. It got them up to multiplying/dividing by numbers with decimal points, and operations with fractions and percentages. I think that's comparable to what I learned in a NYC public school at that age (age 12-13).
DeleteThe difference comes later, I think: in 7th grade, I learned basic geometry concepts, 8th grade I learned algebra, 9th grade I learned geometry with statements and proofs. That's where the two (= girls' math education and boys' math education) diverge, and the pace increases after that.
Rabbi Adlerstein wrote an article on Cross-Currents where he said that it's not simple at all for bochurim to try to absorb all that information at age 20, when they've finished yeshiva gedolah. Many are so despondent by the amount to learn, at such a fast pace, they give up.
Another thing to consider is that adding more subjects to a yeshiva katanah curriculum means leaving something from the limudei kodesh out. They have a very long day as is.
If we are bring anecdotal, then I'm often struck by the ignorance of charedim and by their inability to communicate in clear English.
DeleteYehudah, a charedi educator wrote a piece on Mosaic pointing out exactly how "no time" is a myth. They have lots of time, especially at the younger levels.
Delete"'IF WE ARE BRING ANECDOTAL', then I'm often struck by the ignorance of charedim and by their inability to communicate in clear English"
DeleteHa! LOL!!!
@pb&j It's a fair cop, but one auto-correct typo does not a failure to communicate make. The slobbering drivel spoken by hareidim in lieu of formal language skills, on the other hand....
DeleteThe best thing for the chareidim in Israel would be to abolish the charedi parties. That way all other parties would compete for the charedi vote and give them whatever they want. Like here in the states.
ReplyDeleteNotable how the enlightened bearers of modernity so glibly drop their values of democracy and freedom when they think they know what is best.
DeleteNoted on previous post. The newspeak of "tolerance" and "equality" etc, are only useful as the modern way of quelling dissent. Same with the "my body, my choice" phrase, which went out the window the moment it became inconvenient. Same with "no quotas", which likewise went out the window when more blacks/D voters were needed. Its the greatest mistake of conservatives to have meekly gone along with it, while they get laughed at behind closed doors.
DeleteA couple of people seem to have taken courses in missing the point. Read his comment again.
DeleteWorth thinking about what exactly the Likud party is today. It accepts the standards of the extreme RZ party and offers Ben Gvir a ministerial post with no qualms at all. And gives the chareidi parties a way to destroy the economic future of the company. Bibi has killed the Likud as a Liberal secular party. And yes, he will do anything to get elected /stay out of jail.
ReplyDeleteAnd now bibi has pushed to include the utterly utterly unpleasant noam party in with Ben gvir and smotrich. Sickening. There is nothing bibi will not stoop to. Shameful.
DeleteWhat's so sickening about Noam? That they're on board with the whole gay agenda in the exact same way you are?
DeleteI am really not a fan of Noam. But sickening?
I can understand what you don't like about Ben Gvir (I don't like him either, I like gvirim themselves. Their kids are usually of no help! Just kidding), but what do you have against Noam? That they are passionate about upholding the Torah? Hats off to them! And their election campaign clip was epic!
DeleteSickening because their core platform is based on hatred. Like bengvir pretends to be pro-jewish, when really he's just anti-arab; so too Noam. They HATE gay people. If you look at their proposals, that's what you find.
DeleteLeaving aside the harshness of hating someone even a little bit for the nature of their biological makeup; to create a political party organized around hatred is off the charts nasty. Something is really wrong with those guys .
Well, then! I guess God is voting for Noam! Because He HATES it too!
Deleteואיש אשר ישכב את זכר משכבי אשה *תועבה* עשו שניהם מות יומתו דמיהם בם!!!
And about the 'Pride' movement, I would like to present a novel 'drasha':
תועבת ה' כל *גבה* לב!
LOL!!
And about Bibi, yeah I agree he sold the Likud out! I guess after he saw Bennett violate all his campaign promises and create a coalition with the Arabs under Lapid's premiership, he realized that Israeli politics are a free-for-all!
@pb&j missing the point (again). G-d may or may not hate it the same way he hates those who cheat in business as a תועבה but hate isn't the primary focus or the organising principle of G-d. Quite the opposite in fact קל רחום וחנון.
DeleteNoam is all about the hate.
@NAF, where do we find cheating in business labeled as hated and/or a תועבה?
DeleteAnonymous, it's right in the Torah. Devarim 25:16. Last week's parsha.
DeletePersonally, I don't know why we can't have both. Be honest in business and look on homosexuality as disgusting. "Hate" is so overused these days.
"(It's interesting that whereas in the US it's the chassidim rather than the Litvaks who are more closed to secular education, here in Israel it's the opposite.)"
ReplyDeleteI'm not sure how true that is. I think a lot of this is about money. The Belz wanted funding one way or another, and would take it if they could join Chinuch Atzmai and get it through there. But the Litvaks don't want to share that precious Chinuch Atzmai money more than they have to, so Belz agreed to secular studies so they could get money through the regular (in this case, Mamlachti Charedi) system. Of course, the second Bibi offered them money without that, they took it.
still the contradiction of Belz running after a deal (which his chasidim all approve.. because the Rebbe is always right..) which is essentially the same thing NYS is demanding & NY Cheredim are decrying (again because the Rebbe said so)
Deleteso the same rules, in Israel they run after it claiming it will SAVE yiddishkeit / mosdos, in the US they claim the same rules will destroy Yiddishkeit
" But the Litvaks don't want to share that precious Chinuch Atzmai money more than they have to"
DeleteAnd I thought חלוקה was a thing of the past.
Just until a few days ago, דעת תורה was clear: Belz would not join חינוך עצמאי.
ReplyDeleteIt seems that דעת תורה can be bent for money & politics.
This article is mistaken. Gafni pointed out that he is not demanding full funding for chareidi schools that do not learn the core curriculum, but only for them to get the funding provided for them by law.
ReplyDeleteand change the "law" to get them full funding with no strings attached. smart.
DeleteAnd you believe that he'll turn down the full funding? He even was upset that charedi teachers (who aren't members of the teachers union) weren't getting the same raise the regular teachers were.
DeleteYou keep playing the same game over and over, don't you? You take one of Jonathan Rosenblum's columns from 2015, misrepresent it and call it "his most important" post, and cynically use it to falsely portray him as an ally to your opinions. How interesting, then, that just yesterday you were called out for your hypocrisy in using the new york times to support your opinions, when your own all time most important column - what a coincidence, also from 2015 - lashed out at its dishonesty and lack of integrity.
ReplyDeleteThere is no "hypocrisy" in pointing out that one NYT article was shoddily researched and badly flawed, whereas another one on a different topic by different people was well-researched and accurate.
DeleteThat self-serving "distinction" was already shown previously to be both hollow and groundless. The novelty today is that you're digging up someone's writings from 2015 to misrepresent his thoughts in 2022, when the exact same thing was done to you yesterday. You know what they say about Karma.
DeleteLet me let you in on a big secret, Lawrence.
Deletethe NYT is not ONE person. there are multiple writers, and even the same writers can get something right and other things wrong let alone different writers over a 8 year period.
it seems you couldn't put this thing together yourself so there ya go. now you know.
I think Karma applies to whoever does it first, which ain't R' Slifkin here.
Delete"whereas another one on a different topic by different people was well-researched and accurate"
DeleteAnd how do you know that it was 'well researched and accurate'?? You do not have first hand knowledge! The Times does NOT have a chezkat kashrut with their reporting and I wouldn't trust an article of theirs about the price of tea in China. You should know that good and well. And if you insist on being so blind to your biases, you can ask Bari Weiss about how much they love Jews. I did not read the article, but some of the things that I saw quoted from it in the comments section of last post, such as that the parents bribe the teachers every year not to hit their children, is a bald faced lie. Yet you insist on swallowing their hogwash, hook, line and sinker.
"RETARD!"
People have opinions on a subject before reading any article. Such as that Israel is basically good; that Chassidim make light of secular ed. Articles are then judged by that standard. That which dovetails with those opinions, especially when the opposition should admit that some of those opinions are a public secret, is accepted, that which doesn't, isn't.
DeleteIf you disagree, you're meant to be specific.
"People have opinions on a subject before reading any article... Articles are then judged by that standard. That which dovetails with those opinions... is accepted, that which doesn't, isn't."
DeleteWOOOAAAHHH!
A full throated admission to confirmation bias! This was EXACTLY my point!!
@cacahuètes et gelée
DeleteMy point was that *your* opinion and that of others opposing this post so broadly, is actually the same as Rabbi S's in certain areas, and he knows it. You can't be persuasive if suddenly you start posturing otherwise. You need to narrow down to where the NYT is specifically wrong, such as the whacked out claim that parents bribe the teachers not to hit, or that the article wasn't timed for the woke vote. But that requires more work.
When I wrote, "If you disagree, you're meant to be specific", I was too brief. I might have given the impression that there's nothing specific to say. No no, and I just gave two specific examples.
As the laws of LH"R swirl in my head, I'm not being clear about all the details. You may use your imagination what they are.
Anon 6:52
DeleteIf I am reading correctly between the lines, either you are an EXTREMELY astute reader of this blog, or you are Rabbi Slifkin and can probably see the true identity of sock puppets.
Anon 6:52
DeleteI agree in theory, but my point is that this is an anti-Semitic and biased article. Are some of the points in it true? Yes, the same way that the anti Semitic tropes that Jews control the world can perhaps be in some ways supported the fact there are so many powerful Jews in politics, finance, and Hollywood. But based on those kernels of truth, the anti Semites will make broad and baseless accusations, and monger hate. If someone were to try hitting RNS over the head with a post from The Daily Stormer about how Jews are so rich and powerful, he would ridicule him and laugh him out of town! A biased anti-Semitic smear article contains some truth to disguise all hate and lies should not be relied upon at all! If RNS wants to have a frank discussion about Chassidim not having a basic secular education is one thing, but to quote such open bigotry to support it is another!!
Rabbi Slifkin, before you go around trusting the NYT like the Bibl... err... Darwin, I suggest you read Bari Weiss's resignation letter! It should teach you a thing or two about just how 'objective' the NYT is to the non-woke agenda!!
Deletehttps://www.bariweiss.com/resignation-letter
After observing the comments section of this site for some time, I had the following thought which I expressed to a friend today:
DeleteFrom the cavalier attitude of the Chareidim on this blog, it seems to me that they don't take the bickering here nearly as seriously as the MO do. The reason quite possibly may be because to the MO, it's a fight for their survival to justify their guilty conscience and doubts about the future of their society. To Chareidim, it's just a silly game.
It's very telling that in MO publications, they speak excessively about the Chareidim (a quick perusal of cross currents will reveal many articles about Chareidim, this very blog is exactually probably the best example!) whereas the Chareidim between themselves don't really speak about the MO at all. A Chareidi boy with no real life exposure to MO would hardly know anything about them beyond that they exist. The Chareidim seem to have enough self confidence about their society and their way of doing things that they don't feel the need to be continually looking over their collective shoulder and putting others down to justify their consciences.
It's called little brother syndrome.
Many years ago, when I was in sleepaway summer camp, there was a boy in my bunk from Canada who felt the incessant need to put down America and "stupid Americans". Everything was "stupid Americans this" and "stupid Americans that..." Finally I told him, "Enough already! Do you know why we Americans are not busy belittling Canada the entire day? Not because your country is so great, but because no one cares about your silly little country! Most of us have rarely if ever even been there and their whole claim to fame is they are America's little brother!"
This seems to be a very good parable to what I am witnessing here.
Cross-Currents is a charedi publication, you know. And Charedim blast Modetn Orthodoxy all the time. Just look at your post.
DeleteWhat (if any) is the level of Haredi and Hassidische participation in the trades (e.g. electricians, plumbers, HVAC, pipefitting, etc.) in Israel -- or in the USA, for that matter? They seem like remunerative but flexible and "non-threatening" careers (university not required, no office situations, flexible once established, etc.)
ReplyDeleteThere are plenty of them in the US, both yeshivsh and chassidish. They usually own their own shops, because it is actually impossible to work for the Union shops. Their schedules simply will not work for an observant Jew, and because they are in a CBA and a set schedule they don't have to accommodate one's religious needs (except under certain extreme circumstances). And the big Merit shops are nearly as impossible as the Unions. Thus, there's a lot of guys in the construction industry, and kh they are doing very well. In general also there are lots of guys in real estate development, and that itself provides plenty of projects down the line. [But these jobs don't need a "college education", so in some people's little minds they don't exist.]
DeleteThat's the US. The Israeli scene is quite different. I believe the construction industry would be perfect for Charedim and the country as a whole, but there are a lot of barriers to entry, both legal and social. The social barriers I mean come from the charedim themselves.
Yes, there's the knotty problem that they are avoiding army service because they're not supposed to be working.
DeleteNachum - yes, that is indeed a knotty problem. Israelis are scared to death of being called a "fraiyer", and cant stomach the notion of Charedim of not being in the army. Its funny, because being in the army is a privilege and a mitzvah, not a chore! But you can't change people's attitudes overnight.
DeleteUnknown: It's the charedim who don't want to be fraiyers by *serving*. They're ones motivated by that emotion, not the rest of the Israelis who serve them.
DeleteNachum, I respect your opinion, but that's not the way they see it. Worse, they see your perspective as that of Pharaoh's, who wont give them straw, then accused them of being too lazy to work. Or anti-semites throughout the ages, who wont let the Jews join the guilds or farm land, then accuse them of being capitalists. They make a good point. You can argue about the draft, which is indeed a knotty problem, but the subsequent effects are out of their hands.
DeleteWell researched and accurate, indeed.
ReplyDeleteI’ve always wondered whether Chareidi men in Israel not going to work is that harmful for the country. In the average Chareidi family it is primarily women who are the bread winners. Already today there is a strong trend for women to study advanced qualifications for which they can receive a higher salary.
ReplyDeleteThat being the case, the roles are simply reversed. The woman goes to work in the professional industry, be that high-tech, medical or other. And the man ends up performing the women’s jobs in and around the house, while perhaps seeking a part time form of blue-collar employment.
Now while you can discuss the harm this causes to the traditional family model, of which there is much, what does emerge is clear. The deficiency in “professional careers” is simply not as bad as professed.
As you said, leaving aside the complete inversion of male and female roles, especially in a society that davka claims to uphold them, there is, first, the question of why the split should be between men and women. Maybe some of lots of men would do better to work an maybe some or lots of women would do better raising the kids. But that option doesn't exist.
DeleteSecond, in many if not most cases, the man does *not* get a "blue collar" job (which isn't as easy as you imply, by the way) and *also* does not "help in the house." He's "learning," you know. So the woman has to have an intense full time job and *also* raise a large-family singlehandedly. Older siblings play a big role.
It's politics. Western democracy is an unsustainable form of government that leads to the ruin of the nations that adhere to it. Bibi is no different then anyone else, just smarter.
ReplyDeleteWhen exposed to secular education the charedi way of life will collapse. It may collapse anyhow, they will fight to the end.
Why are charedim 1/3 of the school age children and not DL with their inclusive and contemporary approach? We have spoken about this before and should all know the answers by now.
My DL grandkids don't know or care much for Judaism but all went to good schools for their sector. All are very patriotic and will serve in the army and have a decent secular education, but the next generation will likely not even go to DL and lose the patriotism. The charedi grandkids don't have this problem. This is a general drift, many exceptions not withstanding. Judaism, like any religion, doesn't do well when exposed to modern secular society. Want to sacrifice your offspring to the Molech? DL and MO is the way to go. They may mean well, but fail to deliver.
Western democracy IS the best game in town.. as long.. as everyone agrees to play by the rules. free speech, education, science, freedom. and anyone who doesn't adhere to these ideals if free to leave and setup their little fiefdoms / cults / dictatorships somewhere else. they will not last for long trying to stand on their own feet.
Deletedemocracy only crumbles when the majority who BUILT the country using democratic / education / science, concedes it all to an extreme ideology, an ideology which could never uphold a modern country / economy, let alone build it.
sad.
You have some chutzpah talking about Molech here. Someone's sacrificing their kids, and it ain't the non-charedim.
DeleteThere are, by the way, lots of patriotic Israelis who are completely secular.
Incidentally, was this claimed loss of Judaism (which is kind of impossible in Israel anyway) magic? Were you involved?
The numbers are simple: Charedim have a lot of kids. And somehow their Knesset seats never increase. Funny.
I wonder why the Charedi Knesset representation increases so slowly. Could it be that there are that many people like myself who, while chosing charedi chinuch as the best available option, don't vote for charedi parties? I don't know the answer.
DeleteIt is rare that I agree with another opiner, but Yakov here is the exception. Not sure though if Molech is the apt qaulifier; simply "the ebb and flow of human history", wherein civilizations rise and fall: The sun will rise in the morning.
DeleteDemocracy fails when the folks realize they can raid the public coffers by voting for politicians who will give it to them. Ditto the charedim, eventually the coffers will run dry for them too. Not sure if China would put up with such shenanigans (correct answer is no). DL will go the way of Philo: Fascinating to read, here today gone tomorrow. Nothing new under the sun. Except Jesus.
"You have some chutzpah talking about Molech here. Someone's sacrificing their kids, and it ain't the non-charedim."
DeleteNo? Someone sending their kids through a system that they know from the outset has a 30% failure rate is not sacrificing their kids?
Cool!
He's the grandfather.
Delete"My DL grandkids don't know or care much for Judaism "
DeleteWhere were you?
Sure, Yakov, that's one cause. (Of course, *most* DL vote for non-religious parties.) Another one, obviously, is the very high charedi dropout rate, which is Never Mentioned.
DeletePB&J: Well, considering that charedism is a false form of Judaism, their own failure rate, between a very high dropout rate and all the kids who *stay* charedi, is close to 100%.
"Another one, obviously, is the very high charedi dropout rate, which is Never Mentioned."
DeleteI don't think anyone doubts or denies that there is attrition. But having lived in the Charedi world for many years, I don't think this is "very high" like many non-Charedim like to think. On the other hand, after living several years in an officially DL yishuv, I think what is going on about the allegedly high Charedi dropout rate is just so much projection. The attrition here is off the charts, but it doesn't register, because when you leave the derech in the DL world, you still look the same.
The rationalist contortions one must engage in to convince oneself that the large charedi families spanning generations are somehow a failure while the small DL families of decreasing knowledge, observance and commitment to Torah and mitzvos are a success.
I can't even bothered to stoke the retard outrage because it is so pathetic. The denial is astounding.
For DL Zionism, the army and working is more important then Torah. The reason Jews abandon the religion is because its galuti interpretation is inadicvate for their noble souls that thirst for higher values of return to Zion, Geulah and Redemption of the world. Read Rav Kook and listen to Rav Uri Sherki, who say so openly. The mitzva of our times is Yishiv Eretz Israel and it's more important then the halachic observance. This is the correct path to serve the Almighty and if you had missed it, your learning and observance are meaningless. DL worship the chilonim and the state and load their students with incomprehensible, convoluted studies in 'Emunah' which confuse them - hence the results.
DeleteAlso, DL hold that there are no chilonim in Eretz Isroel - everyone fulfills the most important mitzva of living in the land. It's a total disaster when you drill down to what the leadership realy believes.
@Yakov, I don't want to pry, only that in the past you've disclosed the answer to the following question, which is bothering Ephraim and others, how do you come to have some DL grandchildren and some Chareidi grandchildren?
DeleteOne son went to Mercaz HaRav. Not sure why anyone cares.
Delete@nachum There was a study published by the chevra dati leumi bnitunim last year. It showed that only 6% of charedim drop out and more than half of those still are dati. Meanwhile in the dati sector there is a drop out rate to non religious of 40% and 5% become chareidi!
Delete"If one charedi kid in each family enrolls in some sort of education or training program, that still leaves five who don't."
ReplyDeleteAre you talking about boys only? Aren't you ignoring half the population? What are the numbers on Charedi female education and professions?
How about ending all handouts and getting the government out of education. The government has no right to tax Peter to pay Paul, nor do they have the right to force a parent to educate their children a certain way.
ReplyDeleteYou want a thriving economy? End socialism and embrace liberty.
@Daniel, I take it you're against Biden's forgiving student loans. And that in the future we should eliminate loans in the first place.
DeleteAnonymous- you *don't* think so?
Delete@Nachum, one yes and one no. But I didn't offer a solution to save society to have my thoughts parsed, as he did.
DeleteAll those loans are the *reason* higher education costs so much. Government intervention, as usual, results in the exact opposite of the intended result.
DeleteYes Nachum, only that Laisez faire has its own set of problems, several of which manifested themselves in the past two centuries. There is no simple solution, so optimally it should be monitored wisely.
DeletePlease name a few of these problems. Or anything approaching the hundred million plus dead socialism has given us.
Delete"Unless... ...the country is doomed." - God kept us around for 2k years under the most ridiculous of circumstances and brought us back in remarkable fashion, in line with a prophecy written thousands of years prior. If that is the case, we'll make it thru this too.
ReplyDeleteare you nostalgic to get back in gulus with pogroms and expulsions...?! or mayby its the inquisition you long for!!
Deleteein somchin al hanes, wishfull thinking will destroy us
I think N. Slifkin is talking about avoiding another 2k years of penury owing to the sectarian dissolution of the country that occurred in the first place. We've had 2 exiles to date. 3rd one always remains a possibility.
DeleteWait a minute - the CURRICULUM is the "path out of poverty" for the Charedim? But I thought the DRAFT was the path out of poverty!
ReplyDeleteWhat did the uneducated Hasid say to the educated college professor?
ReplyDelete"Rent is due on the first"
So all uneducated chasidim are landlords?
DeleteThis is the myth that all haredim believe. Despite having no education worth speaking of, all haredim are intelligent, successful businessmen, capable lawyers, have no problem catching up on math and science within one or two years and have well supported, well nourished families whose wives are super happy to work wash clean and raise children.
DeleteIt's true in a minority of cases, but income data suggests otherwise. Most are, as you might expect, barely capable of getting a job that requires anything more than basic skills.
One of the most embarrassing moments of my life was sitting in a meeting with Rabbi Niderman from Williamsburg with a group of ceos who had come to talk about a scheme to teach entrepreneurs in the ultra orthodox community there. They were willing to put in time and effort. The good rabbi, instead, just begged them to open businesses in the neighborhood that could employ the maximum number of unskilled labourers from within his community. Get the point?
No, but according to the times all chassidim are poor and uneducated.
DeleteNo, according to the Times *many* chassidim are poor and uneducated, whereas according to those in the frum community angry at the Times, hardly any chassidim are poor and uneducated.
DeleteThe comment was in response to Ephraim, who somehow inferred from Yoni that "all" chassidim are landlords.
DeleteAnd again you misrepresent things. No one claims "hardly any" chassidim are poor and uneducated, whereas according to the times article almost all of them are. The reality, of course, is that "some" of them are poor - just like every other community in the state of new york. The same can be said of "uneducated", although that of course must be defined.
"whereas according to those in the frum community angry at the Times, hardly any chassidim are poor and uneducated."
DeleteNo, they ARE uneducated, but they are NOT poorer than other communities. So who cares if they're uneducated?
@unknown you are obfuscating. Obviously, at the two extremes, neither 'all' nor 'hardly any' charedim are rich or poor. But your claim that chareidim are just like any other community is simply false. They are much poorer, (especially in Israel), they have worse job prospects and are less educated than average. And that is no suprise given how their society works.
DeleteIt is what makes them a burden in others. And the fact is that they dismiss this as being a problem and simply don't care that others pay the bill.
Which is why being haredi means being a worse jew than a secular jew who at least takes part in society even if they don't keep shabbat.
"...And the fact is that they dismiss this as being a problem and simply don't care that others pay the bill. Which is why being haredi means being a worse jew than a secular jew who at least takes part in society even if they don't keep shabbat."
DeleteHuh? No comprende amigo. I understand your frustration from people who 'simply don't care that others pay the bill', but I don't understand your logical sequence why that makes them worse than a secular Jew, who commits the worst of sins, many of which are theoretically punishable by death. While Judaism does not exactly condone setting oneself up to be reliant on others, in the hierarchy of mitzvot, it is nowhere near as bad as transgressing on the more serious sins. So you seem to be arriving at your conclusion of who is a better Jew from the viewpoint of a secularist! And what do they know about Judaism? Absolutely nothing!
" They are much poorer, (especially in Israel),"
DeleteHey, you're changing the topic. On this thread we were talking about the Times article again which is about the situation in America, not Israel. In America, the Chassidim do not seem to be any worse off than their counterparts. I live in a mixed neighborhood (chassidim and non chassidim), and although I do not know what is going on in my neighbors bank accounts, by and large the chassidishe neighbors live a much more extravagant lifestyle. So I'm not sure how anyone can accuse them of being poorer.
Not a fan
DeleteBecause that's what the statistics show. I already shared the link to zip code linked income tax. Guess what? Haredim in brooklyn and Williamsburg are poorer than the people around them
DeleteYes, but as others have pointed out already, government stats of their income are not a very good indicator. Unfortunately.
DeleteAbout the statistics - in these communities, there a lot of, shall we say, "untraditional economic arrangements" that may or may not be technically legal, that allow workers to be compensated in "untraditional" ways, artificially deflating their reported income. Besides for this, the average chassidishe household is much younger = just starting off = lower income as you would expect. And the women tend not to work - which doesn't mean they are unproductive- they are homemakers and watching their own young kids, instead of paying others to do so. So it is the statistical comparison that is flawed, these communities are definitely not poorer than average, as anybody who knows them can attest.
DeleteWhereas charedi publicists and propagandists, on the other hand are perfectly reliable...
DeleteWho's that jolly looking guy with the big beard to the left of Bibi?
ReplyDeleteThe party hack who runs Agudah now that Litzman has been convicted of some serious crimes. Elu Elohecha Yisrael.
DeleteIndeed, his presence accounts, in a couple of ways, for much of the tension between the two factions this time around. Degel wanted to know why a nobody gets to run the party just because it was Agudah's turn.
Does he have a name?
DeleteHey! Can anyone answer this for me? I tried looking online but apparently no one reported this. Who is the new guy in charge?
DeleteYou're *really* proving my point here.
DeleteYitzchak Goldknopf.
Thanks Nachum! Yeah, I guess that does prove your point!
DeleteI have a modest proposal to prevent mechanations such as Bibi has just done, complete separation of the election for head of state and for the Knesset. Not the quasi-separation that was tried in the 1990s, complete separation. With complete separation, any group of parties that does not like the head of state's governance would have to wait until the end of the term to try to elect someone different, peeling off small parties from the coalition for a no confidence vote would cease to be an option.
ReplyDeleteOnly you and every other Israeli. Alas, not gonna happen.
Delete