1) People have a right to peacefully protest! (Indeed they do. But there are plenty of people here who are taking butcher knives and firebombs and guns to storm the border and kill and kidnap Israeli civilians.)
2) There is no evidence of that! (Yes there is. There are Arabic Facebook pages and interviews and photos.)
3) But it's not all the Gazans who are doing that! (Right. And it's not all the Gazans who are being shot!)
4) Israel is just trying to kill as many Gazans as possible! (If it was, there would be carnage like in Syria. Israel is trying to avoid killing Gazans - aside from anything else, it is politically very damaging.)
5) Israel should just use tear gas! (They have, but it often doesn't work, such as when it's windy, or when the Gazans have gas masks and bury the canisters.)
6) Israel should only use rubber bullets! (They often can't, because these only work at short range.)
7) Israel should just arrest them! (If soldiers went up to the crowds to do that, there would be a bloodbath.)
8) Israel is so technologically advanced, there must be a way to stop them without shooting them! (No army in the world has yet found a way to repel armed attackers without ever using bullets)
9) It's so disproportionate - so many Gazans wounded or killed, and no Israelis! (So what?! When you are repelling an armed invasion, there is no reason to let them kill more of you before continuing to stop them!)
And the Top Stupidest Argument is...:
10) The Palestinians have legitimate grievances! (Even if this were true, are you claiming that Israel should therefore just let them storm the border and butcher its civilians?!)
10) The Palestinians have legitimate grievances! (Even if this were true, are you claiming that Israel should therefore just let them storm the border and butcher its civilians?!)
The only problem is that most people are far from rationalist on this topic. They are like the most committed hareidim but their chasidus is the narrative of the oppressed little guy who fights back heroically against an evil regime. This is such an inextricable part of their identity that the rational responses you provide are totally inadmissible. "Their" rishonim only refer to Jim Crow and apartheid and such, so this is the only reality they can see.
ReplyDeleteThis is the first time I've seen the Facebook page displayed here. It seems fake because no bulldozers were in evidence during the riots nor is it reported anywhere. I suspect it's a plant.
ReplyDeleteGoogle searches for sample sentences came up with nothing.
ReplyDeletesame thing here a minute before the end.
Deletehttp://www.israellycool.com/2018/05/15/must-watch-andrew-bolt-what-those-criticizing-israel-are-really-saying-is-lets-have-more-jews-killed/
The Facebook page is https://www.facebook.com/Awda.Palestine/. The particular post reproduced here was there - I saw it with my own eyes. A day later, it was deleted.
ReplyDeleteI looked up the site. It says: "Al-Awda, The Palestine Right to Return Coalition, is a broad-based, non-partisan, global, democratic association of grassroots activists and students. Al-Awda develops, coordinates, supports and guides, as needed, global and local grassroots initiatives for action related to the achievement and restoration of Palestinian rights in full."
ReplyDeleteIn other words, pages on this Facebook are authoritative and do not reflect Hamas policy.
It's irrelevant whether it was explicit Hamas policy. The point is that there were clearly numerous people there who aimed to storm the fence and kill or kidnap Israelis. So Israel had to use force to repel them.
DeleteOne point: There was an eight month old baby who died from inhalation of tear gas fumes. What was a mother doing by taking her child to a place of immanent danger? The first thing normal parents do is to see that their children are out of harms way not directly in it.
DeleteTells one a lot of the mentality of our cousins.
The translation is way too smooth. Google translate is never that good.
DeleteI have no opinion on the actual matter.
In what way do those aims not reflect Hamas policy? I would guess the "democratic" part.
DeletePierre Rechov's documentary "Behind the Smoke Screen" captured some candid statements by Hamas leaders, that showed their true intent.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c7OoPiNBlJI
At 4:45, Hamas leader Yahya Sinwar is seen saying, "We will take down the border (with Israel) and we will tear out their hearts from their bodies."
It can't get any more explicit than that.
--Yehudah P.
There wasn't any serious attempt to kill or kidnap Israelis. They knew they couldn't do that, if opposed.
ReplyDeleteThe purpose of the whole exercise was to get as many of their people killed as possible with with as little real threat. They did some, but only to encourage Israel to shoot. But this was kind of like rock, paper, scissors.
And they lied.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/world/middleeast/gaza-protests-palestinians-us-embassy.html
"Officials from Hamas and other militant factions addressed the worshipers, urging them into the fray and claiming — falsely, to all appearances — that the fence had been breached and that Palestinians were flooding into Israel."
they had no idea what they would do if somehow they crossed into Israel. Throw rock? Kill people? There was no plan for most of them.
In the end it stopped because of something Israel did:
"At 5:30 p.m., shortly after an Israeli airstrike in Gaza, organizers who had been urging people toward the fence all day suddenly began shooing them away, and the day’s action quickly subsided."
They should have bombed something in Gaza that hamas cared about from the beginning.
Lots of info here:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.dailywire.com/news/30638/hamas-planned-violence-gaza-border-media-act-their-ben-shapiro
Well put Rabbi Slifkin. Israel bends over backwards to avoid inflicting human damage. No other country would be more humane than Israel if faced with similar circumstances. I bet most would be less humane. The fact is the media is anti Israel. FAKE NEWS !
ReplyDeleteI don't know if this is even true anymore. The government of Israel, whatever it's flaws, takes it as a given that its first duty is to protect its own citizens. The media and political elites in the west, by contrast, see themselves as members of an international liberal fellowship; their attitude to their own citizens ranges from indifference to outright contempt. They clearly think that people being murdered by Islamic terrorists or MS-13 is the 'price we have to pay for diversity' and some of their actions, such as covering up Pakistani rape-gangs in Rotherham and two dozen other cities for 3 decades actually beggar belief (as in most people will simply refuse to believe what happened even though it is on Wikipedia).
DeleteMaybe if Al Queda turned up on the Rio Grande threatening to kill the first people they find they would make an exception to their open borders beliefs, but maybe not. Things are accelerating so fast that the policies of the Clinton administration are now considered 'alt right'.
@Gavriel M The Nazis had great compassion for ANIMALS. Anyway, I am confused by West's attitude. Is it about oil ? Is it about ignorance ? Is it about lunacy ? Is it about ideological diversity ? Is it for practical diversity for example having people conversant with Islamic peoples in order to gather info ? Other reasons ? Maybe some combo. There is way too much fake news in the West's media.
DeleteIt's about automatic underdog bias and pro-POC bias with an added kick because of the need to placate the increasing Muslim populations that they have unwisely invited in.
DeletePeople make a big mistake in thinking it is about anti-semitism. There are some anti-semites who selectively and dishonestly use left-wing tropes to attack Israel, but that is a side-story. On balance, being a Jewish state gives us some cover because Jews still count as sort-of-underdogs after the Holocaust, though this is receding.
And look, case in point, here's Nancy Pelosi:
Delete“Does he not believe in the spark of divinity, the dignity and worth of every person?
She is talking about MS-13 whose motto is 'kill, rape, control' and rip peoples' hearts out while they are still alive
Liberalism is a sickness; it inverts every possible true moral value and turns it into its opposite. A lot of Jews can see that when it is directed at Israel, but not elsewhere.
Even if they didn't carry a single knife or other weapon, the charge on the border would still pose an unacceptable threat. Imagine 100's or 1,000's of Gazans charging past the border fence and running to the nearest town or kibbutz to riot and wreak havoc. The ensuing bloodbath of both Jews and Arabs would make recent events seem like a day at the park.
ReplyDeleteThe tear gas argument is funny in a macabre way given that the only innocent casualty happened as a result of using tear gas.
ReplyDeleteHere's a little secret. PR is meaningless. Those who support Israel do so for their reasons and those who oppose Israel do so for their reasons. These stories are ultimately meaningless. Morality is not a factor in international relationships. Nobody actually cares.
ReplyDelete6) Israel should only use rubber bullets!
ReplyDelete...
they seem to work upto 100 yards. does Israel have a need to shoot rioters at a greater distance than 100 yards ?
if the reports of big exit wounds true, why would Israel not be able to using less damaging bullets.?
https://www.haaretz.com/middle-east-news/palestinians/.premium-gaza-doctors-injuries-in-border-protests-worst-since-2014-war-1.6014013
OK. When you do your army service, you only get rubber bullets. We'll have a casualty to show we weren't being disproportionate and you'll have your answer. Everyone wins.
DeleteThe whole point of the exercise was to divert attention away from the Embassy opening and onto to themselves. Which, by this post, you are enabling. The army deals with it, TG, in their usual outstanding way. Others should simply ignore them. Same with the few deluded Jews who instinctively take their side - there's not very many such fools, and there will always be such fools, so no point in engaging them in debate.
ReplyDeletePersonally, I thought the most interesting moments of a great day were the John Hagee speech, and the nuanced differences between the two Shecheynau brachas made by Rivlin and Bibi.
As stupid as it sounds, we all know that if Trump transported 30,000 Americans to attack Iran's border the world and media would put the blame on him for all the casualties. Clearly this is a one-sided story in the media. So sad. Only helps Hamas to further mistreat their own people.
ReplyDeleteExcellent article. Maybe the best on the topic. Tne haters will have a hard time rebutting it without revealing what they are about. This should be publicized widely.
ReplyDeleteI posted it in the following links so that people can learn from it.
Please could other posters to the same and get it viral.
http://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2018/05/a-child-at-gaza-border.html
http://www.israellycool.com/2018/05/16/in-the-name-of-journalism/
and here subject to moderation
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/israel-turkey-diplomatic-spat-tit-for-tat-recep-erdo-an-a8354626.html
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/turkey-erdogan-us-theresa-may-press-conference-israeli-embassy-human-rights-a8353321.html
amidror seems to have read your article as he makes the same point!
ReplyDeletehttps://www.washingtonpost.com/world/israels-use-of-fatal-fire-in-gaza-excessive-force-or-justified-mob-control/2018/05/16/435dc998-5856-11e8-9889-07bcc1327f4b_story.html?utm_term=.cbff7c6cd062
Israel’s military says it uses live ammunition only as a last resort. But the only other method used for dispersing the Gaza protesters has been tear gas, a senior Israeli military official said during a tour of the fence last week.
He said Israeli soldiers have not shot rubber-coated bullets, which have been used elsewhere, because they lack sufficient range. Trucks that spout foul-smelling water known as “skunk” that Israel regularly uses in the West Bank have not been used, he said, again adding they lacked the range and were not armored.
Asked whether Israel could use less lethal methods to contain the protesters, Yaakov Amidror, Israel’s former national security adviser and a senior fellow at the Jerusalem Institute for Strategic Studies, said that such a question was an example of those who “can sit in an air-conditioned office, drinking coffee and give advice to the Israeli army that is facing off against many thousands of Palestinians.”
The Media such as the New York Times and CNN have for years used "Moral Equivalence", well CNN how many reporters have been killed in the Israeli Arab Wars since 1927? 0 it's time that you eat your words and DIE. Come on live like an Israeli and put your life at risk every single day. Feel what it is like to get blown up on a Bus or to get stabbed to death while grocery shopping. How about having your family stabbed to death at home. Until we see CNN funerals you are just NAZI garbage.
ReplyDelete