A legendary anti-vaxxer and conspiracy theorist neighbor of mine gave my cellphone number to a Mrs. Etie Teigman. She is the founder of the anti-vaccination group PEACH (Parents Educating and Advocating for Children’s Health), which was the subject of a recent article in the
New York Times for sending out a glossy booklet to dissuade people from vaccinating their children. Mrs. Teigman has been sending me a number of text messages. Here is the latest, in response to a
post of mine where I ridiculed the notion that Bill Gates revealed his plans to kill millions of people via vaccines:
Someone just sent me your upshot of the vaccine hoax:
"Nevertheless,
I am confident that the global medical and pharmaceutical community is
correct about the importance of vaccines. And, flicking through the
anti-vaccination publications, some things jumped out at me as examples
of their deeply flawed epistemology. One
was a quote from Bill Gates at a 2010 TED Talk, printed under the
heading "Vaccination for... Depopulation?" The quote read, "The world
today has 6.8 billion people. That's heading up to about nine billion.
Now if we do a really great job on new vaccines, health care and
reproductive health services, we could lower that by perhaps 10 or 15
percent."
If RABBI, DR.
Slifkin you were doing the proper "bridge building" (head-heart) to grow
in character as every human, & certainly, every Jew should be doing
- you would understand that you could actually learn something from
even the "PEACH" people (I actually founded PEACH). The valuable trait
to which I refer is called "humility". One of the major perks of
humility, because I value others' knowledge, is ALWAYS learning
something new from people vs arrogance in which your knowledge capacity
is already overflowing & you have nothing new to learn since you're
now the Uber-chacham.
Not
only are you doing yourself & your family a colossal disservice by
your unfounded confidence in a well established criminal entity &
industry run by convicted felons many times over - BUT you have the harm
caused to every one of your fawning readers on your already
overburdened shoulders. Do you really want to have to "pay" for all
that harm? There's a Judge, you know, & no human gets away with
ANYTHING, whether you "believe" or not (even self-proclaimed
vaccinologist atheists like Drs. Stanley Plotkin & Paul Offit have
plenty to fear).
Be a
real chacham & take a long range view at what's happening...vaccine
corruption has been completely revealed for those who care to see...Del
Bigtree has BH over 40 MILLION fans...the damage from vaccine is beyond
devastating- in YOUR own community & world wide - so what are you
going to say on your blog when The criminal arrests begin..."I told you
so"? You might try that pitiFOOL approach - but deep down you'll keep
experiencing gut wrenching shame because you were afraid to hear &
share the truth...the window to do teshuva is NOT forever remember...
You, and many, many guilt ridden doctors, rabbis, &
pitiFOOLy irresponsible parents have their heads & hearts deep under
the ground in denial on the open & shut case of vaccine criminal
genocide.
Though the
truth always rises to the top - and you, as well as all the other G-d
deniers, will personally suffer unimaginably painful & humiliating
shame... I still care for my fellow Jew enough to try once more - you
would have immensely greater success & heroic fame by honoring our
genuine gedolei haDor on the vaccine issue.
You
probably can't even wrap your mind around the degree of severity of the
violations of shmiras halashon, onaas d'varim, & many aveiros you
are committing by being mezalzel gedolei haDor with your blog.
We
have THOUSANDS of mothers in our networks who are laser-focused in
their powerful t'FEEL'ot to have you & your ilk considered as
"malshinim, minim, & zaidim" & that the world should see middah
k'negged middah. We also have nonJews in mind for the Bracha al
ha'tzaddikim who are genuine world class heros who manifest G-dly middos.
Why
should you leave yourself out of the loop of real success? Has your
heart been so hardened & "vaccinated" with cruelty? Give yourself a
way out of the vax-schmutz by listening to Del Bigtree. There are many
others fighting the pHARMa-satan, but he's phenomenal, may H' continue
to protect him!
Well, there you go! I think this shows that anti-vaxxers really truly believe that they are the ones saving lives and that it's everyone else who is harming and killing people. It also shows that at least some of them seem somewhat unbalanced.
"We have THOUSANDS of mothers in our networks who are laser-focused in their powerful t'FEEL'ot to have you & your ilk considered as "malshinim, minim, & zaidim" "
ReplyDeleteWhat lovely sentiment. My mummy always told me "if you have nothing nice to say, say nothing at all"
If that alleged TED talk by Bill Gates actually happened, she would have included a link to it. I searched for "vaccination" at https://www.ted.com/talks and it's not there. Also, her rant reminds me of Christians threatening us with hellfire if we don't accept Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.
ReplyDeleteHere's the link: https://youtu.be/WUJMR3BUm2s?t=154
DeleteOf course, though, he didn't mean that vaccinations will directly lower population growth. He believes, rather, that people have more children when they fear that their children may not make it to adulthood.
Nonsense! He said exactly what he meant to say. Don't be such a lamdan into his words.
DeleteSimpletons and charlatans take Gates' words out of context.
Deletehttps://www.snopes.com/fact-check/bill-gates-vaccinations-depopulation/
David: Just in case you missed this post from later down the thread, which shows that Levi Yitzchok is totally correct:
DeleteMelinda: Saving children’s lives is the goal that launched our global work. It’s an end in itself. But then we learned it has all these other benefits as well. If parents believe their children will survive—and if they have the power to time and space their pregnancies—they choose to have fewer children.
Bill: When a mother can choose how many children to have, her children are healthier, they’re better nourished, their mental capacities are higher—and parents have more time and money to spend on each child’s health and schooling. That’s how families and countries get out of poverty. This link between saving lives, a lower birthrate, and ending poverty was the most important early lesson Melinda and I learned about global health.
There's an atheist of the typical New Atheist type who on his Facebook is railing against Bill Gates as a vaccination hypocrite and denouncing vaccines and even made an Antivaccination Facebook Group.
DeleteBill Gates only 'corrected' himself about what he meant after everyone went up in arms to what he actually said.
Delete"Somewhat unbalanced"
ReplyDeleteI mean...
CNN just reported that measles outbreak has now spread to Michigan. The source for this outbreak Brooklyn and Israel!!
ReplyDeleteWhat a colossal chillul Hashem!
https://www.cnn.com/2019/04/16/health/measles-outbreak-new-york-michigan-bn/index.html
Michigan has had cases for several months now. Currently up to 41 confirmed cases. (All my family is back in Detroit.)
DeleteA kiddush hashem Jews destroying the vax idols
DeleteConsidering how many times she insults you in this one message, I think it's safe to say that her opinions on proper behavior are not worth the electricity she used to make them known.
ReplyDeleteAgree. Naim doresh, naim mekayem.
DeleteAnd yet when Rabbi Slifin insults her right back by calling her unbalanced, you not only enthusiastically agree, but even emphasize the point. I mean...
DeleteHis exact words were: It also shows that at least some of them seem somewhat unbalanced.
DeleteHe did not insult the writer; he judged her words. They do make her seem somewhat imbalanced.
By the way, I'd like to thank you for naming names. I realize that in this case it's easy enough to find out who founded PEACH, but I hate it when people who seek to harm others are left unnamed. Telling people that someone is trying to harm them without telling them who just creates paranoia, and saved no one.
ReplyDeleteThese people are absolutely impervious to reason. Don't even try.
ReplyDeleteLet's say she's right: You need to learn humility, the pharmaceutical companies are devils, and the anti-vax people are amazing.
ReplyDeleteAnd we should listen to Del Bigtree, who will convince us.
And if we're not convinced, it's only because of our bad middos.
The truth is, anti vaxers are probably right about vaccines causing many harmful effects. The debate needs to be whether it makes sense to accept these harms and casualties in place of perhaps more severe diseases which ultimately lead to more death.
ReplyDeleteBy saying that they are wrong about everything only reinforces their position, since clearly there is some truth to their claims.
This is the only position that makes sense. it is a logical fallacy to dismiss an entire position, which has plenty of scientists and doctors that are part of it, based on your perception of a few members. Keep in mind that the more "rational" members of this group are laying low right now...
DeleteIncorrect. The reality is that a tiny, tiny, miniscule portion of people receiving vaccines will have side effects, as sometimes occurs with medications. But vaccines are overwhelmingly beneficial and the rate of side effects is vanishingly small.
DeleteThey are wrong. Most complications aren't directly attributable to vaccines (the parents just want them to be, so they see what they want to see), and even if they were, I'd take the small chance of harm from vaccines over the far greater risk of severe complications from the diseases we're protected from. Vaccines save lives, period. You can argue with the facts all you want, but that doesn't mean we should still be having that debate. It's been proven many times: vaccines work, and any perceived harm from vaccines is mitigated by the lives that have been saved. These people won't change their minds, though, so any "debate" is worthless.
DeleteHalacha does not allow anyone to force a healthy person to undergo a medical procedure, such as vaccination with known risk (as reported in VAERS) for the sake of the public. Period
DeleteMiriam MD: You know what has more of a "known risk" than vaccines? Measles and other preventable diseases.
DeleteMiriam MD: I'm okay with not forcing vaccination, as long as you don't leave your house and infect others.
DeleteMy siblings had measles 30 40 years ago, my kids had it this year no big deal.
Delete@moishe: There has already has been more than one death from this outbreak. Sometimes it is somewhat mild and other times it is deadly. Especially for people with suppressed immune system, pregnant women, etc. If 1% of people die of a certain disease 99% will say "well I survived". The 1% is enough. (Set aside those admitted to the ICU, with permanent negative non-fatal results, etc).
DeleteBesides for two reported deaths in Israel, there are two people in comas. I don't know their prognosis, but I don't think it includes a full recovery.
DeleteBEFORE the measles vaccine, the death rate averaged 432 per year in the US. Out of 4 million cases per year. So that would be 1 out of 10,000, not one out of 100.
DeleteThe death rate from measles for the past 16 years has averaged 0.5 per year or one out of 600 million people. That is with a vaccination rate of about 90% which has remained steady.
Are you so absolutely sure that the risk from vaccines is less than 1 in 600 million or even one in 10,000?
And who gave you the right to call anyone a Rodef?
See www.rodefshalom613.org for links to these numbers.
No one in the US has died. I know someone who visited both families who are said to have dies from the measles and both families say that the kids did not die from the measles.
This is a complex topic and I don't know that there is anyone who knows everything about it. And new information is coming out all the time like all science. Is this the only area of science not subject to new information or changing of our understanding?
As much as I disagree with her views, I think it is very wrong, for you to post this person's text messages in order to belittle her (unless she gave you permission.) Did she give you permission to post this?
ReplyDeleteI think it's perfectly fine. First of all, these are her views that she believes in promoting, so why should there be any reason for her not to want them publicized. Second of all, if letting people have a better understanding of anti-vaxxers somehow harms their efforts, that's good for society.
DeletePeople who propagate such deadly conspiracy theories are just this side of rodfim, but as the text was for your eyes only, I fear publishing it with identifying information crosses the line into loshon hara. (Sorry, Avi.)
DeleteActually, it is a mitzvah for Rabbi Slifkin to name and shame her, as hopefully that will cause a decrease in the disease, injury, and death she is promoting.
DeleteI had figured it was a given that you had received permission from her to post her text message on a public forum and would never have thought to asked. I am honestly shocked this is not the case. This is a gross violation of her privacy.
DeleteYou're entirely wrong. You have no right to publicly post someone else's private text messages to you. Really disappointing and unethical behavior.
DeleteLashon Hora L'Toeles is allowed. There is no greater Toeles than discrediting something that causes disease, injury, and death.
DeleteYou have every right to publicly post someone else's private messages to you unless there is a prior understanding that you won't. Of course, even this may be mitigated by circumstances such as would apply here: publicizing and ridiculing the actions of an individual who is a danger to society.
DeleteThis lady is sending Rabbi Slifkin repeated, unsolicited messages, which are harassing and are full of disturbing curses and bad wishes. She is doing so as an official representative of a very public institution, namely PEACH, whose agenda is public for all to see. So I think for Rabbi Slifkin to publish the messages verbatim is certainly justified, not only as minimal self-defense, but also to alert others to PEACH's actions and methods.
DeleteI wasn't persuaded until I saw that she wrote "pHARMa-satan." That's when I realized the word "harm" is in "pharmaceutical." It's been right there all along! Hiding in plain sight! How could I have been so blind?! I feel so piti-FOOL!
ReplyDeleteIs it possible to unvaccinate your kids? Asking for a friend...
You can only unvacSINate using a tesHOOVER.
DeletePerhaps the repercussions of lashon hora and sinat chinam these conversations are generating are worse than anything a physical ailment can do to us. Are we giving up our olam haba over this? Doesn't anyone consider the measles outbreak is "me'et Hashem? Or is Hashem out of the picture here? Perhaps it's time for some rabbinic introspection as to what Hashem is trying to tell us rather than trying to lay blame on others. This is the work of the satan. We are supposed to have the Torah as our guide, not the CDC and Paul Offit, an athiest of Jewish heritage, who has come out visciously against metzitza b'peh - he says on his website "...and ultra-Orthodox Jewish mohels spread herpes by using contaminated circumcision tools."http://paul-offit.com/booksby/bad-faith/. He would also like to ban bris milah. Is this an appropriate person to listen to and allow control over our bodies?
ReplyDeleteSome kosher food for thought.
Not quite.
DeleteWe do believe in the natural order of things. We have our own hishtadlus to do, and the importance of the hishtadlus we need to do in order to keep ourselves and our community, and the world at large, safe and healthy cannot be understated.
Or if you are still not convinced/interested in this kind of argument, then try this one:
Perhaps the measles outbreak was Hashem's way of saying that we should vaccinate.
There is no sinat chinam here. To the extent that there's any hate of people, it's of people who want us to die. That's not chinam.
DeleteIt should not be necessary for me to state that the Bill and Melinda Gates foundation that gives billions for measures that promote human health and well-being, including funding measles and other vaccines for poor nations, are not a cabal to reduce human population. However, the citation of Bill Gates' TED talk. taken out of context, could lead the naïve to such a belief. Here is a better indication of their views and aims from the Fact Watch website.
ReplyDeleteWhat is not up to debate are the intentions of the Bill and Melinda Gate’s Foundation with regard to vaccines and population growth, as articulated by Bill and Melinda Gates in their Foundation’s 2017 Annual Letter:
Melinda: Saving children’s lives is the goal that launched our global work. It’s an end in itself. But then we learned it has all these other benefits as well. If parents believe their children will survive—and if they have the power to time and space their pregnancies—they choose to have fewer children.
Bill: When a mother can choose how many children to have, her children are healthier, they’re better nourished, their mental capacities are higher—and parents have more time and money to spend on each child’s health and schooling. That’s how families and countries get out of poverty. This link between saving lives, a lower birthrate, and ending poverty was the most important early lesson Melinda and I learned about global health.
While it is understandable that some people will adopt false and even dangerous beliefs. Such beliefs and viewpoint expressions do not make them bad people - only naïve. However, the statement from the founder of PEACH alluding to the alleged prayers of thousands of affiliated women to include our blog owner and others like him in their 'velamanshinim al tehi tikva..' recitation is not only unacceptable but approaches the severe torah injunction of 'mechasheifa lo techaye'. That's what threatening someone with a deadly curse in order to control their behavior implies.
Y. Aharon
Agreed that its poorly written, making her appear, as you say, somewhat unbalanced. But that they believe they are the ones saving lives and its the others who are harming people - what's the chiddush in that? In every debate that's what every side believes.
ReplyDeleteI retract the first sentence above, not realizing that her words were from a text message, that she sent you privately and you posted publicly, with her name and without her permission. For shame. Text messages are informal and are not held to the same standard as other mediums. That goes double for private messages not intended for publication. She has a reasonable expectation of privacy in what she sent, and you violated it. Had it happened to you, you'd be referring to yourself in third person as a martyr, and would speak of her "notorious" attempts to stifle you.
DeleteThe message was unsolicited. I receive tons of SPAM on a regular basis. There's no reasonable expectation of privacy, and frankly, I wouldn't care if there was. And it's not the writing style that makes her seem unbalanced, it's the content.
DeleteIt was an unsolicited text full of lies. There is nothing 'private' about it.
DeleteThese people are so diseased...and infecting others in more ways than one....
ReplyDeleteMay the terrorists from Anti-Vaxistan be stopped.
ReplyDelete1st stop the provax terror
DeleteHer mentality is an extreme extension of an extreme type of charedi mentality which brooks no dissent and grows by making weak people feel less frum if they don't follow its party line.
ReplyDeleteBreslov.com's featured writer on women and family has a similarly thoughtful and balanced analysis on this topic.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.breslev.co.il/articles/family/health_and_fitness/the_truth_about_vaccines.aspx?id=22286&language=english
This is not a balanced analysis. It is an anti-vaxx screed. To take one of "n" examples, she falsely claims that the smallpox was not wiped out by the smallpox vaccine.
DeleteI'll try to be more explicit in my sarcasm next time.
DeleteOh, sorry. Too many nuts responding here. Chag Sameach.
DeleteI think I understand this. All drugs have side-effect except vaccines which ALL work perfectly for ALL people. And the adverse reactions listed on inserts are there for legal reasons in case of lawsuits, oh wait, you can't sue vaccine manufacturers or admins, So lets just revoke that law and see what happens.
ReplyDeleteDon't make strawman arguments. Nobody said what you claim they're saying.
DeleteVaccines also can have RARE side effects. Nobody disputes that. The risk is minuscule compared to the risks associated with getting the diseases we are trying to prevent.
DeleteTo: Not brainwashed.
DeleteYou're 100% correct as to what would happen were there no vaccine courts: Vaccines would no longer be available, as no manufacturer would be willing to accept the liability. That's because every parent whose child has some terrible disease or another will sue them in front of a sympathetic jury, claiming that their child's illness was due to the vaccine. The jury will make its decision not based on the science, but with their emotions, seeing a terribly sick child on one side and a wealthy corporation on the other.
The result will be no more vaccines, which the government considers a threat to public health. Hence, the special vaccine court.
However, that does not mean that the manufacturers coul dnot be sued for actual negligence and the vaccine court's decision can be appealed to a regualr court.
You might be happy if all vaccines disappear, but the health authorities wold not.
Read the following and then get back to us:
https://www.skepticalraptor.com/skepticalraptorblog.php/vaccine-court-myths-nvicp-facts/
You might be happy if all vaccines disappear, but the health authorities wold not.
DeleteNo rational person would be happy to see vaccines disappear. And I fully intend the corollary.
You can check the deaths per year caused by common, OTC pain medications. They exceed the number caused by vaccines by at least an order of magnitude. Keep that in mind next time you have a migraine.
DeleteIf Simcha Scholar from Camp Simcha and other vaccine pushers found the cure for cancer or at least the cause would he promote it?
ReplyDeleteAsk your doctor why do so many kids have leukemia and other types of childhood cancers today while they didn't 30 years ago??
Apparently they're all baffled and clueless. It's a BIG mystery to them. We Just DON'T know! they say!
But not everyone is so ignorant and foolish.
Do a search for the term “carcinogenesis” (literally “cancer creation”) on the product insert for any vaccine. You’ll see the following common phrase regarding most vaccines, “This vaccine has not been evaluated for its carcinogenic or mutagenic potentials or impairment of fertility.”
Huh? The inserts say that vaccines are not tested to see if they are carcinogenic. Seriously?
How can we inject these dangerous, toxic concoctions into our infants and children without knowing whether or not they cause cancer?
So, since specific vaccines are not tested to see if they cause cancer, let’s take a look at some common vaccine ingredients and look at the medical literature relating to these specific ingredients.Following are a few cancer-causing ingredients, neurotoxins, and immune-destroying ingredients that are in most vaccines:
Formaldehyde (embalming fluid) – This is classified as a known carcinogen. Both the EPA and the International Agency for Research on Cancer admit this. So, why do vaccines still contain formaldehyde? Formaldehyde has been linked to several types of cancers, including Leukemia. It has also been used in the Anthrax vaccine, DT, DTaP, Hib, HPV, Hep A, Hep B, Influenza, Meningitis, Polio, and more.
Aluminum – Aluminum salts are in childhood vaccines such as the DTaP vaccine, the pneumococcal conjugate vaccine, hepatitis B vaccine, and more. Aluminum hydroxide (just one of the aluminum salts that is used) has been linked to autism, Alzheimer’s disease, and yes, cancer. Aluminum causes cancer by displacing iron from its protective proteins, raising the level of free iron in the body, and triggering intense inflammation, free radical generation, and lipid peroxidation.
Mercury (from Thimerosal) – This preservative is in almost every vaccine and has been linked to autism, mental retardation, and yes, cancer. The search for the association between mercury and cancer reveals 643 scientific papers. Wow!
Again I ask if Simcha Scholar found the cure for cancer or at least the cause would he promote it???
I guess the answer is a big fat NO since he would be putting himself out of a job and all the people that work for Chai Lifeline.
He'd rather make them feel good while they're dying rather than prevent their sickness and death in the first place. And just like greedy big Pharma he wants more customers!!!
He has the Chutzpa to ask you to inject your kids with the same toxins that his customers were injected with which caused their cancer an illness. Then even more Chutzpa to ask you to support his death Camp.
Perhaps we should rename it Camp Death! rather than Camp Simcha, since he promotes more sickness and death.
The day is coming when everyone will see the truth, and charlatans like this who hide in the guise of being righteous will be revealed for the sickness death and evil they support and promote in this world!
https://thetruthaboutcancer.com/vaccines-cancer-in-a-syringe/
So much of this has all been debunked, a long time ago... It's just so tiring.
DeleteWow. As someone who as met R' Scholar and visited Camp Simcha, to me, this comment takes the cake. (Pesachdik, of course.) It's beyond disgusting to accuse anyone even remotely involved with Camp Simcha of "promot[ing] more sickness and death" or of not wanting their campers to get well.
DeletePractically every substance is a potential carcinogen.
DeleteYour accusations about the motivations behind the organization Camp Simcha are disgusting and unfounded. If anyone had the cure for cancer, they would publicize it.
However, if it existed, you may not want to take it if you have cancer c"v because there might be side effects... ?
Once, again, these posts attract all conspiracy theorists to start commenting.
ReplyDeleteSeems like the crazies are back. Apparently you can't bother to look up the "truth about cancer": vaccines don't contain enough of those chemicals to have an effect on someone, and they certainly don't cause cancer.
ReplyDeleteThis should have been posted as a reply to "Simcha."
DeleteUnsolicited texts,such as the one received by Rabbi Slifkin, have no claim to privacy
ReplyDeleteI'm sorry, but it is plain wrong to publicly post someone's text message that they sent you individually. Even if they write an angry text, so what? And that text isn't just about her views on vaccinations. Its also about you, which is why it was sent to you and not to the internet. Furthermore, texts are forms of one-to-one communication, and should be treated as such. Even if you are motivated by pure revenge for what she said, it is bad manners.
ReplyDeleteRevenge? For what? I don't care what she said about me. But she did say that I am a malshin, which means that there is no expectation of confidentiality. And it is very important, even life-saving, for people to know the kind of people behind the anti-vax movement.
DeleteNonsense. The txt is a litany of lies.
DeleteIts plain wrong to "educate" people not to vaccinate. What happens when infants die from measles because of idiotic people who "educate" others not to get their children vaccinated, are they going to hold themselves accountable for murder?
DeleteMr Slifkin, your pomposity is beyond reproach. A little introspection goes a very long way.
ReplyDeletehttps://jbhandleyblog.com/home/2018/4/1/international2018
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0946672X17308763
I'm pompous for saying to follow the consensus of physicians, and you're not pompous for saying that they are all wrong?!
DeleteShame on you! Get your damn kids vaccinated and stop this insanity! You are literally putting people's lives in danger! And if you refuse then stay in your on home with your kids and dont go anywhere.
DeleteYou have cited a research paper from "Journal of Trace Elements in Medicine and Biology"describing data from the brains of 5 people aged 15-50 at death with absolutely no controls. There is no way of knowing where the aluminium in their brains is from - our lifetime exposure to aluminium in the environment is many orders of magnitude greater than that from vaccines. So they took brains from 5 people who died from whatever and who happened to have autism and they measured the amount of aluminium in their brains and said it was high. By the way - they didn't even check if these people had ever received vaccinations, which vaccines and the total amount of aluminium they had received from vaccines (which would be a very small amount).
DeleteIn addition to the other valid arguments supporting posting the text, I would say it's a fair response to someone who got a phone number without permission and used it for the sake if harassment.
ReplyDeletehttp://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/23757
ReplyDeleteThis writer cites that large numbers are dying in Madagascar because of measles.
https://m.news24.com/Africa/News/madagascar-measles-epidemic-kills-more-than-1-200-people-20190416
ReplyDeleteRabbi, don't you get it? I have humility and that means I always learn from other people, except when facts are being stated by people involved in the pharmaceutical industry, the government, medical establishment, or any rabbi who disagrees with my gadol Rabbi Shmuel Kamenetsky, because afterall they are all deemed malshinim by our teFEELos anyway, so you can't listen to anything any of them say.
ReplyDeleteBut other than that I am extremely humble and learn from sooooo many different people, including 40 MILLION rando's who follow this certain cult leader I like and are all able to regurgitate his talking points and recite the misleading information pushed by the nonJewish antivax movement we latched onto, because the chukim of the goyim are OK when only chiloni nonTznius El AL flight attendants will be harmed (for now, let's not look into future ramifications that are surely coming) by those goyish chukim.
Sheesh, rabbi, why don't you get some humility like me? Then maybe I can take you out of the part of my teFEELos where I condemn you to eternal damnation with all the pharmaSatans whose other medicines I readily take if God forbid a medical emergency happens to me or a family member.
Can't you just be humble, bro?
I think the reason that it is difficult to move and reason with the anti-vaxers is that they are not fundamentally motivated by science, facts, and reason. At the core of their beliefs and arguments is emotion: my kid came down with a terrible disease and there must be a reason for it that I can understand and control. When it just so happens that the age at which children are vaccinated corresponds to the age at which autism manifests, they find that reason, even though it has been shown that the two are unrelated occurrences. They just happen to occur at the same time. The fact that the incidence of autism in vaccinated children is the same as for vaccinated children isn't sufficient to overcome their emotional need. Indeed, no amount of science, facts, and reason can be enough; we are talking about people's children here. When we argue facts and reason with them, we are shouting into deaf ears. However, how does one address the emotional issues with them? I am not wise enough to know how to do that.
ReplyDeleteBut antivaxers, especially in the frum world, led by the pied piper Rebitzen Kamenetsky and her husband Rabbi Shmuel, consist of many, many people whose children never developed autism. It has turned into an epidemic of stupidity.
DeleteTo the contrary, the vaccine skeptic arguments are all about science. You may disagree with the science but all they do is cite studies and doctors and scientists who are concerned about the cost/benefit of vaccines.
DeleteIt appears to me that it is the majority of pro-vaxers who do not argue the science but rather rely on the scientific consensus. I'll acknowledge that the cognitive dissonance to even consider that what they "know" to be true induces people to deem the topic not worthy of investigation. But that is not science.
Vaccine skeptics have offered an open invitation to debate any vaccine expert on the science. Pro-vaxxers seem to hide behind the claim "they don't want to give them any credibility". But really, if the science was so clear, what would they have to be afraid of?
Please find someone who is an expert to debate a vaccine skeptic. Go to www.rodefshalom613.org and email that guy to set up a debate. He said he could arrange it.
Guaranty there are no takers. Why no takers? Something to think about.
@RS
DeleteWhat the hell are you talking about?! There is a measles outbreak and people have already started dying. This will soon become an epidemic. What is there left to debate? Why not debate whether the earth is flat?!
The benefit of vaccines has already been debated ad nauseam. There is a wealth of medical research on the topic and the global health community is in agreement over the benefit of vaccines. On this blog alone the topic has been thoroughly debated in comments on various vaccine posts.
There are no takers for stupidity. Its like wasting your time debating Israel's right to exist. Both are a complete waste of anyones time.
Please stop making disingenuous arguments. Anti-vaxxers cite flawed studies. They disagree with the "scientific consensus," as you put it, which means they don't just disagree: they don't understand or willingly ignore the science. I don't have to understand every single piece of information to know that vaccines are safe. Many people who are comfortable with vaccines, myself included, understand enough of the science to feel comfortable with vaccines. Since we know how science works in general, we are okay with trusting the scientific consensus that vaccines are safe. It doesn't hurt to understand in particular how vaccines work, either.
DeleteNobody wants to debate you or your organization on the science because you'll just hide behind your flawed studies and claim "we have science too!" You don't want to bother changing your mind, either because you just can't understand how science works or you don't actually want to. I've read that website, since you insisted on it. His logic is flawed, his claims have been debunked (but that's scientific, so I guess you don't understand it or believe it), and his arguments are based on feelings instead of how things actually work. If you don't trust the scientific community on something that's been proven many times, even when they conducted more studies specifically to disprove people like you, maybe it's your mindset that's the problem, and not the science.
@RS
DeleteSince when is science anything but ASSUR?! Scientists are nothing but atheists who claim our Torah is false c''v and claim science proves Hashem does not exist c''v. What next, you will tell us that evolution is true based on arguments "all about science?"
What are you, a maskil?
The rishonim and achronim all pasken that we follow the advice of medical doctors. The medical doctors all advise vaccination as a life and death matter. Many people used to die and suffer from the diseases that were wiped out by the vaccination medicines and that are protected against by the vaccination medicines. We have no right to disregard medical doctors and what you advise is against halacha, and you are no different than maskilim advocating change to halacha based on their "science interpretations." Why would I waste my time in bitul Torah debating doctors or debating forbidden science topics?
You have strayed far from the path. No rebitzen or hotlines can replace our halachos.
And now measles has arrived in RBS.
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