Monday, November 28, 2022

The Heresy of Noah's Crystal

Following on from last week's post about the ban on "Peshuto Shel Mikra," let's discuss an example of the purported heresies in that work. Ironically, it's a topic that I discussed here two weeks ago - the illumination of Noah's Ark.

Veyavinu BeMikra is a booklet written to explain why Peshuto Shel Mikra had to be banned. The very first example that it brings is the explanation of the illumination of the Ark. As you will recall, Chazal gave two explanations - one was that it was a window, and the second was that it was a gemstone or crystal that radiated light. In discussing the second view, Peshuto Shel Mikra says as follows:

"והדעת נוטה, שהאבנים הטובות המאירות אין להן אור מעצמן, כי בכוחן רק להגביר את האור מחמת המאור הנמצא בקרבתן ולהפיצו ביותר, כדוגמאות המראות המבריקים מאוד. וא"כ, גם לדעה זו הֻצרך נח לנרות דולקים, שעל ידם יפיצו המרגליות את אורן בתבה".

"Reason indicates that because precious stones do not emit their own light, but rather refract the light emitted from other sources, like very shiny mirrors, then Noah must have also been burning candles, the light of which would be reflected around the Ark by these precious stones."

Veyavinu BeMikra explains that this heretical for two reasons. First is that the Rishonim who discuss this approach are clearly of the view that the stone emitted its own light. Second is that the authors preference for that which makes sense according to "reason" means that he only accepts that which the human mind can rationally grasp and rejects the supernatural.

I think that it's easy to understand the concern. One minute you're rejecting the traditional view about how Noah's crystal worked, and before you know it, you're asking how kangaroos got to the Ark. And trying to make the story of Noah's Ark fit with science is indeed a recipe for leading someone away from conventional Torah thought and risks opening a Pandora's Box. Indeed, Rabbi Moshe Meiselman goes to great lengths to explain why the account of Noah's Ark cannot be reconciled with science in any way, as a sort of bizarre purging effort to make people reject rationalism.

And yet, the desire to make Torah conform with reason and science has long been a mainstream approach in rabbinic thought. Rambam wrote this explicitly:

"…Our efforts, and the efforts of select individuals, are in contrast to the efforts of the masses. For with the masses who are people of the Torah, that which is beloved to them and tasty to their folly is that they should place Torah and rational thinking as two opposite extremes, and will derive everything impossible as distinct from that which is reasonable, and they say that it is a miracle, and they flee from something being in accordance with natural law, whether with something recounted from past events, with something that is in the present, or with something which is said to happen in the future. But we shall endeavor to integrate the Torah with rational thought, leading events according to the natural order wherever possible; only with something that is clarified to be a miracle and cannot be otherwise explained at all will we say that it is a miracle." (Rambam, Treatise Concerning the Resurrection of the Dead)

The Rishonim who spoke about Noah's crystal emitting light were not trying to describe a miracle - they explained it in this way because until recently it was standard belief that certain precious stones do indeed emit light (which actually isn't so far from the truth). And if you're going to start heresy-hunting over this, then you're also going have to burn goodness knows how many Stone Chumashim, which describes the crystal view as meaning that Noah placed a prism in the wall of the Ark that refracted the outside light around the Ark. ArtScroll is clearly taking this approach in order to make it conform to the scientifically possible, even though it is not the traditional explanation of the crystal view.

Yes, reason and rationalism have their risks. But they are nevertheless a traditional part of Judaism, and it is both wrong and dangerous to ban them as being outside the scope of Jewish thought. Over 25 years ago I was tortured by the question of how the kangaroos got to the Ark, and so I went to ask Rav Aharon Feldman, with whom I was quite close at the time. He kindly but sternly suggested that I shouldn't be interested in such questions. Well, naturally, that didn't do anything to satisfy my distress, but fortunatel I was able to go down the block and discuss it with Rav Aryeh Carmell ztz"l instead. He gave me an answer that Rav Feldman would consider heresy, but which is consistent with the approach of Rambam and many other greats throughout history.

Personally, notwithstanding the dangers of trying to make Torah fit with reason wherever possible, I think it's an approach whose legitimacy is worth defending.

 

(On a related note, if you can bring a suitcase from Teaneck containing a deck prism and other Ark-related materials for our exhibit, please be in touch!)

145 comments:

  1. You left us hanging!!!!!! What did Rav Aryeh Carmell tell you?
    Shimshon Kaplan

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  2. It should be noted that the disagreement on what “tzohar” means - either a window or crystal is related to other midrashim on Noach being a tzadik b’dorotav (l’gnai or shevach) and to Lot’s wife turning into a pillar of salt. Hamavin Yavin.

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    1. I am clearly not a Mavin in this instance. If you aren't willing to spell it out, can you point to the commentaries you are referring to?
      Shimshon Kaplan

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    2. Why are you trying to seem like a gaon with unearthly knowledge through cryptic idioms? I have a healthy background in Torah learning, but realize that the purpose of communication is to make yourself understood to those with whom you are speaking. Hamavin yavin isn't communicating, rather just being pretentious.

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    3. I think he is referring to a vertl I came up with and reposted at http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2022/11/the-illumination-on-ark.html?showComment=1668436910769#c1259934204210129420

      At least, I don't know of a real source for linking Aishes Lot being punished for looking at the destruction with the question of whether or not Noach had to be kept from seeing the distraction in his day.

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    4. What he's saying (or I'm saying he's saying) is that Lot's wife was forbidden to look back because she herself was not too deserving. If צהר is a window it means that נח could look back at the destruction, and thus בדורותיו is לשבח. However, if צהר is crystal then בדורותיו is לגנאי.
      Feel free to speculate whether he's making a contentious statement about the צהר organization, or whether relying on miracles rather than the natural order is לגנאי.

      ודי לחכימא ברמיזא

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    5. Ephraim, I do not know if the link to my earlier comment was up when you posted your "what I think he's saying".

      There is also a more complete description of the idea on my blog at https://aspaqlaria.aishdas.org/2001/10/19/of-arks-and-rainbows/

      In any case, as far as I know, Anonymous #1 posted some vertl I came up with as though it was Torah miSinai.

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    6. @micha berger, The first 2 points of your “vertl” can be found in the Sefer Torah Temima (by Rabbi Baruch HaLevi Epstein) published in 1902 as well as in the Sefer Tosefes Bracha (by the same author) in a little greater detail. He connects both the machlokes about Tzohar and the machlokes about Noach’s righteousness as well as describing the difference between Avraham and Lot with respect to being permitted to view the destruction of Sodom.
      Your third point, about the rainbows that must have been present within the ark due to the prism effect of the stone, is novel (at least to me) and fascinating. I have known and liked the Torah Temima’s explanation for many years, but your addition is like icing on the cake. Thank you for sharing it.
      (A different "Anonymous")

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    7. Rabbi Berger, I agree with different "Anonymous". Thanks for sharing the piece. The rainbow within the ark idea is very intriguing. It adds meaning for Noah as he steps out of the Ark. Someone else on the comments section pointed to the Ramban's understanding of the Rainbow as having really been present since creation. The Ramban suggests that the Rainbow only gained meaning as a sign of peace at the time of the Mabul.
      Your understanding really highlights this idea. We can pass by the same object so many times in our lives without a true awareness of what it is or the beauty it contains. Then, in a moment our perspective can shift towards it. I can imagine Noach sitting in a dark interior of a wooden box for a year contemplating the beauty of the rainbow. How could he not walk away from that a changed man? How could he ever look at the rainbow in the sky the same way? Could he ever think of anything else other than G-d's personal intercession in his life? Beautiful.
      Shimshon Kaplan

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  3. "Over 25 years ago I was tortured by the question of how the kangaroos got to the Ark,"- I feel sorry for you.

    "Over 25 years ago I was tortured by the question of how the kangaroos got to the Ark,"- over 1100 years ago, the Great Rationalist Rabbi Saadiah was tortured by the question of how תחיית המתים is possible if somebody was eaten by a lion that drowned and was eaten by fish that were caught and eaten by a person and then that person was burned. He didn't answer the "rationalistic" way, that תחיית המתים is just a "sacred myth".

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    1. @HappyGoClucky 4:45PM

      I too am tortured by Rav Saadiah’s speculation on life after death and its implementation. But unlike Rav Saadiah, I’ll probably wind up in Gehenim so I’ll tolerate all that torture as a harbinger of all that torment that awaits me.

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  4. "Second is that the authors preference for that which makes sense according to "reason" means that he only accepts that which the human mind can rationally grasp and rejects the supernatural....And yet, the desire to make Torah conform with reason and science has long been a mainstream approach in rabbinic thought. Rambam wrote this explicitly..."

    The Rambam also wrote, in the same place

    ודע, שהכחשת שוב הנפש לגוף לא תמלט מאחת משתי סבות: אם שיכחישנו המכחיש להיותו עניין בלתי טבעי,ויתחייב לפי זאת הסיבה שיכחיש הנפלאות כולם להיותם בלתי טבעיות. או שיכחישנו מפני שלא זכר בפסוק, ולא באת בוההגדה האמיתית כמו שבא במופתים. ואנחנו כבר בארנו שבאו פסוקים, ואם הם מעטים, יורועל שוב המתים.ואם יאמר אומר 'אנחנו נפרש הפסוקים ההם כמושפירשנו זולתם' - נאמר לו: המביא לך לפרשה, הוא להיות שוב המתים בלתי טבעי, ותפרשאלו הפסוקים עד שיסכימו לעניינים הטבעיים. וכבר בארנו ב"מורה הנבוכים",בדברנו בחידוש העולם, שעם אמונת חידוש העולם יתחייב בהכרח שיהיו המופתים כולםאפשריים, ולזה יהיה גם כן תחיית המתים אפשרי. וכל אפשר, כשיבוא בו הגדת הנביא,נאמין, ולא נצטרך לפרשו ולא נוציאהו מפשוטו. ואמנם נצטרך לפרש הדבר שפשוטו נמנע, כהגשמת השם. אבל האפשר יעמוד כאשר הוא. ואשר ישתדל ויפרש תחיית המתים עד שלא יהיה שם שוב הנפש לגוף, אמנם יעשה זה בהאמינו שהוא נמנע מצד השכל לא ממנהג הטבע. וכן יתחייב בשאר הנפלאות בהכרח, וכל זה אמנם יהיה נמנע לגמרי לפי אמונת קדמות העולם, ומאמין הקדמות אינו מעדת משה ואברהם ע"ה כלל כמו שבארנו ב"מורה הנבוכים".

    He is very clear that when the Torah is describing a נס, we should NOT try to make it natural to conform with "reason".

    "..but fortunately I was able to go down the block and discuss it with Rav Aryeh Carmell ztz"l instead. He gave me an answer that Rav Feldman would consider heresy, but which is consistent with the approach of Rambam and many other greats throughout history..."

    I hope his answer wasn't that the Mabul never happened and was just a "sacred myth"????!!!!  😱😱😱😱

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    1. Why don't you do some research and find out?

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    2. Research about what Rabbi Carmel told Slifkin in a personal discussion 25 years ago?? How? Is it in a different post on this website? Though if I had to guess, I would assume it was some vague, hand-wavy, rational but non-kefiradike thing, similar to what I would answer.

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    3. Good to know you agree then : )

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    4. @HappygoClucky 4:47PM

      Of course the Mabul was no “sacred myth”. Gilgamesh would heartily agree with you.

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    5. Here's some historical research:
      On most days of the year, we all agree that Rabbi Aryeh Carmell did not speak to Dr. Slifkin about this topic.
      Therefore, the story did not happen.
      If so, the source that the story did happen is suspect regarding any story he repeats.

      That, in a nutshell, is how historical 'research' is carried out.

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    6. The Torah gives no indication that the window operated through a neis, nor that the water rose to greet Rivkah, nor a great many other nissim that Chazal teach. So this refutation to the agenda against peshuto shel mikra stands.

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    7. @Peleg, the opposite, the Rambam himself is going AGAINST the peshuto shel mikra of many, many parshiyos in Neviim.

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    8. Anonymous November 29, 2022 at 2:42 PM,
      Lol!! You are saying good!! But even more than that, none of the contemporaneous written works corroborate this alleged conversation with Rav Carmell, and we have uncovered no archaeological evidence of such! QED!!

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    9. What would be so horrible if the myth of the mabul (deluge) never really happened? Did the 'Flood of Gilgamesh' occur? Did Gilgamesh exist?

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    10. "What would be so horrible if the myth of the mabul (deluge) never really happened? Did the 'Flood of Gilgamesh' occur?" - What kind of question is this?? It did happen. You may as well ask, what would be so terrible if WW2 never really happened? Or the Norman conquest? They happened. The Flood of Gilgamesh did occur. I don't think the author of Gilgamesh got the details right, however.

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    11. So you're claiming the Ibn Ezra wasn't a pashtun either? He also learns yeshayah like the Rambam. Seems like you're just playing a word game to be contentious.

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    12. Are you just making a tautology, that rationalism = pashtun, and saying therefore there is a correlation? So the Rashbam was a "rationalist" because he was a pashtun? It is you who are playing word games. How about you just admit, like you say below, that rationalists interpret things rationalistically, whether that is peshuto shel mikra or not?

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    13. There's a strong correlation (but not absolute, obviously) between rationalism and being a pashtun. That's not a tautology at all and I have no idea why you would think there is.
      The IE was both a pashtun and a rationalist, the Rambam was a rationalist and probably a pashtun (according to the evidence we have) and the Rashbam was a pashtun but probably not a rationalist (that has to do with his unusual view on the purpose of peshuto shel mikra).
      In any case, you haven't responded to my question: if you think the Rambam's pshat in yeshayah makes him not a pashtun was the Ibn Ezra not a pashtun?

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    14. "Rationalists interpret things rationalistically, whether that is peshuto shel mikra or not?"

      That's a pretty good summary of the Rambam's view . . .

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    15. Rationaism often isn't peshat, when peshat itself has claims that seem irrational. Like a global flood until "all the high mountains under the entire sky were covered".

      Rationalism seems to be used here without a rigorous or even consistent definition. It can mean (1) consistency with non-revealed knowledge, e.g. logic, scientific or well-established historical findings. Is could mean (2) a minimalist attitude toward the metaphysical and/or (3) toward supernatural / miracle claims. And there seems to be other definitions taken for granted in these conversations as well; I just never stopped to make a canonical list.

      To me, rationalism means getting one's inspiration from the Divine Genius one finds in Creation and in the Torah. Whereas mysticism means getting one's inspiration by experiencing how much of Creation and the Torah are beyond human grasp.

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    16. Peleg, I'm not sure why you think there is a correlation. I showed that there are plenty of places where the Rambam interprets שלא כפשוטו, both in Neviim and in Chumash, sometimes like his Greek philosophy, sometimes like Chazal. On the other hand, Rashbam, a non-rationalist, interprets kepshuto in almost all places. Bechor Shor, a non-rationalist, explains kepshuto. Rashi also has no trouble explaining kepshuto in countless places where there is no Chazal, especially in Neviim.

      Also, what evidence do you have that the Rambam was a pashtun, given that he left us no peirush on Tanach, and the Moreh Nevuchim is chock-full of peirushim that are שלא כפשוטו but according to his philosophy? And the Mishna Torah/Sefer Hamitzvos is chock-full of peirushim that are שלא כפשוטו but according to Chazal?

      Is your definition of פשוטו של מקרא just "whatever is not an interpretation of Chazal", no matter what it is? Do you think the way the Rambam/Ibn Ezra learn וגר זאב עם כבש is the peshuto shel mikra? I think the Ibn Ezra is usually a pashtun, but he is less of a rationalist than the Rambam (he believes in astrology).

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    17. Micha, thanks for that excellent comment. Sometimes we agree!

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    18. I already provided two reasons, above and below.

      I mentioned a number of times how the Rashbam had a different view on the value of peshat. His comment on the beginning of VaYeishev lends some insight into that.

      The Rambam has high words of praise for the Andalusian pashtanim, his son's commentary (which includes citations of his father) is a paradigm of peshat, and in numerous places in the Moreh and other places it is evident that he, in the main, interpreted narrative pesukim k'peshuto.

      The IE's belief in astrology has no bearing on his level of rationalism. The Ralbag was assuredly at least as much a rationalist as the Rambam (much more, truth be told), and he too believed in astrology. That was accepted science in the day and the Rambam was major outlier in that particular issue.

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    19. "...in numerous places in the Moreh and other places it is evident that he, in the main, interpreted narrative pesukim k'peshuto." - where do you see this? To the contrary, one of the main points of the Moreh is to explain how to interpret pesukim שלא כפשוטו. Starting from the very first perek. Maybe derech agav he also interprets pesukim kepshuto when he has no reason not to, but who says this has anything to do with rationalism, Rashi does the same thing in hundreds/thousands of places. Again, I think you are still stuck on the fallacy of arbitrarily defining פשוטו של מקרא as "any interpretation except for Chazal". But even if that was the case, the Mishna Torah/Sefer Hamitzvos is full of interpretations שלא כפשוטו like Chazal.

      I agree that Ibn Ezra was a rationalist, but I'm not sure if Rambam would have agreed.

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    20. Also, what do you mean by "the Rashbam had a different view on the value of peshat"? How is that relevant to the fact that Rashbam and Bechor Shor were pashtanim despite not being rationalists? Also, you never answered my question-Do you think the way the Rambam/Ibn Ezra learn וגר זאב עם כבש is the peshuto shel mikra? Yes or no?

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    21. I've no interest in being quarreled to death. I referenced clear, demonstrative evidence that the Rambam laid great emphasis on peshat (his words of praise for the Andalusian pashtanim, his son's commentary, which includes citations of his father, is a paradigm of peshat) and you ignore those and focus only on the example that is tedious and burdensome to discuss further.
      You made a number of errors and simply gloss over them a) you attempted to prove that the Rambam wasn't a pashtan from a peshat that the IE himself says. Clearly that proof is baseless. b) you attempted to prove that the IE wasn't a rationalist from his embracing astrology when the Ralbag - who was indisputably a rationalist - believed the same. You defended this error with a non-sequitur.

      Regarding the Rashbam, learn the piece for yourself - and while you're at it, acquaint yourself with the different perspectives on the purpose and value of peshat, IE on one side - Rashbam on the other.

      Regarding Yeshayah, you are mistaking anything that is not the literal meaning as not peshat. This is probably your worst error. The Rambam and IE are saying peshat, because the pasuk is (in their view) speaking allegorically (as the Rambam says, this is demonstrated by later pesukim). That has no shaychus to, say, Rashi explaining that Eisav was tired because he was out murdering people. That's simply adding something that the passuk doesn't say.

      I don't know what you hope to accomplish with your numerous, endless, comments on post after post, but it certainly doesn't seem to be arguing in good faith. In any case, as I said below (more delicately), and please pardon me for this - I don't think you're a bar hachi on this issue, and at this point I find this conversation worthless and a waste of time.

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    22. Regarding Yeshaya, you are just saying that allegory is pashut pshat. That claim is not coherent at all. You may as well say that Midrashim are pashut pshat.

      I didn't attempt to prove the Rambam wasn't a pashtan from the letter, you clearly didn't understand my point. I was proving that rationalism doesn't necessarily lead one to pashut pshat, which the letter does prove very well.

      When you say you have no interest in being quarreled and engage in ad hominems and find the conversation worthless, that just means that you have no arguments. Your only argument is that allegory= peshuto shel mikra, which in the case of Yeshaya, is definitely erroneous. So with that, I think we can end the discussion.

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    23. Also, I will try to say this very, very delicately, and please pardon me for the tiniest bit of unpleasantness, but it seems that you are perhaps the tiniest bit unfamiliar with the Gur Aryeh and the Mizrachi, and therefore you shouldn't be expressing your opinion on anything that has to do with Rashi. I think you should probably just sit this one out. Pardon me for any offense, I certainly don't intend it! 🥰🥰🥰

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  5. The מאמר תחיית המתים is a great example of the fact that there is not a correlation between "rationalism" and פשוטו של מקרא. The Rambam spends the vast majority of the letter explaining why you should NOT take the מקרא כפשוטו.

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    1. Of course there is. In the controversy over peshuto shel mikra the banners had a problem with stripping out the nissim taught by Chazal/Rashi and adhering simply to what the pesukim say. The pesukim themselves mention far fewer nissim than Chazal and peshuto shel mikra sticks to the fewer nissim that are explicit in the pesukim. That conforms exactly with the Rambam's view in the letter.

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    2. But the rationalists strip out even those nissim that are in the pesukim לפי פשוטו של מקרא. That is the whole point of the Rambam in the letter. What is the peshuto shel mikra of וגר כבש עם זאב exactly?? So this "rationalism" is not an issue of preferring פשוטו של מקרא, it is an issue of preferring to read pesukim naturally, even AGAINST פשוטו של מקרא.

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    3. "why you should NOT take the מקרא כפשוטו."

      Please clarify. Does this mean that there's no פשוטו של מקרא, or that פשוטו של מקרא exists, is legitimate but should not be accepted alone as the final word on interpretation?

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    4. Of course the method of rationalists is to read things rationally. However, it is undeniable that Rashi/Chazal add many more nissim than the Rambam would take out. What are the "many many parshiyos" you speak of? Unless you're including corporealist passages (I hope not), then you have yechezkel's techias hameisim, iyov, and scattered promises about the Messianic era. That is nothing in comparison with the endless Midrashim that Rashi adds into the pesukim.

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    5. Chazal adds many things to the text, much more than just nissim. So Rashi's derech is to interpret according to Chazal, whether nissim or not, and the Rambam's derech is to interpret according to his pre-conceived philosophy, whether it is peshuto shel mikra or not. Anyways, I think we agree more than we disagree. I just disagree that the tendency to be a pashtun has anything to do with rationalism. The biggest pashtun was Onkelos, who just translated 95% of the time. Rashbam, not a rationalist, was also a pashtun.

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    6. Rashi/Chazal add much more than just nissim. Rashi will interpret like Chazal, whether regarding nissim or not. When there is no Chazal, Rashi will interpret kepshuto. Rambam will interpret like his pre-conceived philosophy, whether it is peshuto shel mikra or not. His philosophy says to interpret shelo kepshuto many parshiyos about the Messianic era. Also, when it comes to mitzvos, he interprets shelo kepshuto, like Chazal. I think we agree more than we disagree at this point. My only argument is that the driving force behind reading the Torah lefi peshuto shel mikra is not "rationalism", unless your definition of "rationalism" = no interpretation beyond plain translation, ever.

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    7. Ephraim, the Rambam is understanding in the this case that that the פשוטו של מקרא is invalid.

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    8. But the Rambam will differ with Chazal in order to adhere to peshat even when there is no neis - perhaps most famously about Yitzchak's age at the akeidah. That's a peshat vs Chazal case - where Rashi follows Chazal and Ibn Ezra and Rambam do not, exactly as one would expect.
      This connects to another correlation between peshat and rationalism - they did not consider themselves bound by Chazal's explanation of the pesukim to the same extent. That is not to say that IE and Rambam had identical views on this - far from it - but they overlapped to a significant extent.
      The most interesting case studies of departing from Chazal are the Ramban - who probably was midway between the rationalists and anti regarding this question - and the Rashbam - who was probably all the way on Rashi's side, but had a different view of the point of peshuto shel mikra.
      In any case, I think it's wrong to make it seem like the Rambam wasn't a pashtun. All you can say is that he had overriding concerns vis a vis peshat, but that's not a stirah.

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    9. As I said above, I'm not sure why you equate "differ with Chazal" = פשוטו של מקרא. Sometimes differing with Chazal is פשוטו של מקרא, many times it is not.

      I'm not familiar with the Rambam about Yitzchak's age at the akeidah, can you show me where? In any case, one example of arguing with Chazal is not enough to show that one is a pashtun. Rashi also sometimes does that, and as I said before, arguing with Chazal does not one a pashtun make. Since most of the Rambam's output on explaining pesukim is in accordance with his philosophy (which does not necessarily have any correspondence with peshuto shel mikra), you will have a hard time proving this.

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    10. At the risk of sounding like a jerk, it's in R' Avraham ben HaRambam (22:1), and I get the impression that you're not familiar with that work in general (that's probably the most famous piece in the sefer - quite surprised that you never heard of that vort). Learn that sefer (in particular with the masterful introduction in the new edition by R' Moshe Maimon) and then get back to me about the Rambam's thought on peshat.

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    11. Chas v'Shalom, you don't sound like a jerk at all. I admit I am not familiar with that sefer, although I have heard of it. Thank you for pointing out that line. But now that you told me, I was curious and downloaded it here
      https://hebrewbooks.org/40223
      and he indeed quotes אבא מרי just like you said (page 50).

      But I still don't see what your point is. He felt that Chazal's calculation of the age didn't make sense, so he argued with it. How can you conclude from that that rationalism usually leads to one learning פשוטו של מקרא? Since in countless other places the Rambam uses his rationalism to interpret שלא כפשוטו?

      I looked at the rest of the sefer, most of the quotes from his father are not "pshat vs Chazal" but are simply pshat, just like Rashi himself does countless times, and a very significant percentage are from the Moreh and are NOT pshat. So I still don't see how you can come to a conclusion from this that "rationalism" leads to פשוטו של מקרא.

      To summarize:
      1. The ultimate פשוטו של מקרא is just the simple reading of the text. Any cheder yingel can do this, it does not require sophistication and certainly not "rationalism"
      2. The more one interprets the text to say things beyond the simple reading, the further one gets from פשוטו של מקרא
      3. The Midrashim of Chazal are generally very elaborate interpretations, therefore they are generally not פשוטו של מקרא.
      4. There are many other ways of coming up with elaborate interpretation that don't involve Chazal. The Rambam does this quite frequently, and in those frequent cases, he is not engaging in פשוטו של מקרא.
      5. I can agree with you that "rationalism" can lead one to argue with Chazal, and therefore default to the peshuto shel mikra. But non-rationalist also have no problem defaulting to the peshuto shel mikra, like we see with the Rashbam, the Bechor Shor, the Ramban, and Rashi himself in countless places.

      Do you disagree with any of the above points? Other than that I think we can consider the discussion closed.

      Delete
    12. I have not had time to read all the comments but I 100% agree with Happy that the rationalism of Rambam does not correspond with peshuto shel mikra.

      Delete
  6. "And if you're going to start heresy-hunting over this, then you're also going have to burn goodness knows how many ...."

    Perhaps these Cherems are just so things don't get out of hand and a sprinkling is enough. For the next while people will 'look behind their back' before writing something. And when people read things that sneaked past the censuring they have an awareness that some find it problematic. Later when the Cherem cools down you make the next Cherem, as needed...(!)

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  7. Over 25 years ago I was tortured by the question of how the kangaroos got to the Ark, and so I went to ask Rav Aharon Feldman, with whom I was quite close at the time.

    Our mesorah speaks of one third of the world (I take this to mean one third of the land) was inundated permanently in the time of Enosh. If you reduce the ocean level by around 600 to 1000 feet, you will expose the Continental Shelf. 8% of oceanic area is shelf. Oceans are 71% of the surface of the realm. That 8% approaches the amount needed to account for the missing 1/3 of pre-inundation land. There is also extensive evidence of habitation in at least some parts of the shelf.

    The mabul was not the only cataclysmic event of those ages, merely the final and most catastrophic. The configuration of the land and distribution of species changed markedly over hundreds of years before hand. It should not be surprising that it did so again post-mabul. There could be all sorts of rational explanations for how or why a specific species was able to be saved. Why would the kangaroos' appearance in the ark specifically be so troubling to you?

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    1. "A third of the world ... was [flooded]"
      See https://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Genesis.6.4.2?lang=bi

      It's not specifically kangaroos but anything presumably unable to get to the ark and later get back home.

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    2. >>Our mesorah speaks of one third of the world (I take this to mean one third of the land) was inundated permanently in the time of Enosh.

      Are you saying that this part of the world still remains underwater? What's your basis for this?
      Seder HaDoros speaks of Atlantis being wiped out by that flood. There are two strong theories about its location; one is that it's still underwater in the Azores and the other is the Eye of the Sahara, above water. (see reference: Younger Dryas Era, if you aren't strongly makpid on our traditional dating of those times.)
      It also speaks of Merlin in Medieval Europe. (Just saying, because it's interesting, to me, but probably not rationalists.)

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    3. Are you saying that this part of the world still remains underwater? What's your basis for this?

      My basis is the mesorah. Even Rashi speaks of this "mini flood". Do I need to restate what I literally just wrote above? Yes, it still remains under water. Isn't that a commonly accepted definition of "inundated permanently"? I mean, maybe in yemos hamoshiach, the waters will recede, but in the meantime, it remains flooded to this day.

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    4. Atlantis was invented by Plato as an intellectual exercise hypothetical. No one ever believed it was real, and it never existed. It *couldn't* have.

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    5. There isn't enough water in the world to cover all the land. There were no ice caps in the dinosaurs' time and there was plenty of land.

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  8. הבן איש חי כתב כן בבן יהוידע סנהדרין קח: "כי לפי הטבע צריך שיהיה בתיבה חושך ואפלה יען כי המאורות לא שמשו במבול וגם היא סוגרת ומסגרת מכל צד אך הוא הכניס שמן זית הרבה והדליק שם נרות הרבה וכדי להרבות האור שם צוהו שיתלה בה כנגד אור הנר אבנים טובות כאלמא"ס וכיוצא כי לרוב זכותם יכה אור הנר בהם ויצא מהם זהרורית גדולה לפי גודלם בכמותם כזוהר החמה בצהרים" (https://www.sefaria.org/Ben_Yehoyada_on_Sanhedrin.108b.4?lang=bi)

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    1. Thanks for sharing

      so all the PSM had to do was add a source in brackets (Ben ish chai) and the opposing pamphlet would have nothing to criticise on this point

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  9. "until recently it was standard belief that certain precious stones do indeed emit light (which actually isn't so far from the truth)"

    Now I'm itching to know this — what is the truth, here? In what way do crystals emit light (or something similar to it)?

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    1. @FairlyMildSslsa 11:14PM

      Crystals do in fact emit light.

      “…The mysterious light that is created when you forcefully rub two quartz crystals together is a known property of certain crystals called triboluminescence (see definition below). You can also produce the triboluminescence effect by chewing on Wint O Green Lifesavers in the dark. Try it in a dark bathroom in front of the mirror and chew with your mouth open (or try placing the lifesaver between your front teeth and snapping it in half with your teeth and fingers). Talk about a bright smile!…”

      https://www.primitiveways.com/crystal-light2.htm

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    2. Who said it was a crystal? Maybe it was hackmanite?

      Delete
    3. In addition to triboluminescence, some crystals also exhibit phosphorescence ("glow in the dark") effects after being "charged" with light.

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    4. Batsheva,

      I don't think anyone claims someone rubbed together two tzohar stones for major parts of the day, every day, for a year to get a feeble light someone could barely see by. And phosphorescence would require exposing the crystal to light, just like the phosphorescent glow-in-the-dark toys you likely played with as a kid. Both are more a glow than usable light. And neither are what the Natural Philosophers of Chazal's and the Rishonim's day thought gems did.

      Chazal simply based themselves on then-contemporary science. So should we.

      But stretching to find natural phenomena that don't do the job AND don't fit Chazal's ideas. Might as say the crystal was cut to be a window. Windows at the time didn't have glass. The other shitah which says that the tzohar was a window is referring to a hole in the wall. The gem bit could be a translucent thing put in that hole.

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  10. Is the United States Dollar real? Well, history is changed by it, but it is an entirely psychological concept, just as make believe as Bitcoin or various other tokens of exchange humans have attributed reality to.

    The Law is simply what people say it is.

    Justice and morality have little or no material basis, and to the Kahanists they are decadent indulgences to be discarded when inconvenient, but I firmly believe they are real.

    Religious truths may be real in the sense that they are impactful, meaningful, and important to society. But that doesn't mean that we need concern ourselves with literal recreations of the practicality of placing all of life into a floating ark. The stern image of the ark floating above vast destruction is poignant, beautiful, and it is an important and real part of our social fabric. But before stoning gay men in the basis of that book, it's important to realise that religious truths are not the same as literal truths; even if they say they are they cannot do so literally.

    If you don't understand the Torah as a mystical non literal narrative; if you believe it is real; then why are you not locked up with Yishai Schlissel, the gay pride parade stabber? We all understand the Rambam's apologetics: if he spoke the truth he would have been killed, and we understand why Rabbi Slifkin can't spell out how kangaroos made it into the ark. He would stand to lose his job, his friends, his everything. And so the literal truths of the Torah becomes a social truth. But to criticise the approach of others who do not have that elusive quality of genuinely embracing rightdoublethink? If you can't bring yourself to utter the truth at least be respectfully silent when others do it for you.

    The question of importing kangaroos into the ark is a trivial one. My four year old child brought home her little parsha book, sang the songs, and asked me if it was a story like witches. I said yes and I defy anyone with pretentions to rationality to argue with her obviously correct mind.

    My older child glared at me, already having learned the social reality of heresy.

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    1. "Is the United States Dollar real? Well, history is changed by it, but it is an entirely psychological concept, just as make believe as Bitcoin or various other tokens of exchange humans have attributed reality to."

      Well no - I can pick up an actual American Dollar - so it is real. The value it has is also real, since I can trade it for real goods.
      The value of the USD also comes from the government backing of its own currency.
      Bitcoins, on the other hand... They are entirely virtual. But they still have real value - if somewhat "hyped".

      Delete
    2. You are referring to what is called "M0" money supply - represented by printed bills and coins.

      The M1 supply, including M0 cash and electronic cash deposits at banks not represented by physical tokens, is roughly twice as big.

      The attribution of real value to both the paper tokens and the numbers in the bank accounts really does come down to human faith. But that doesn't mean they aren't real.

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    3. Non-physical money (M2- liquid bank savings & M3 - long term holdings) is many multiples more than twice that of physical currency (M1). Starting with the FDIC allowing banks to lend out 5x their physical holdings. Then you have government handouts onto WIC, medicaid and other debit-card like devices, or social security direct deposits...

      Tokens are really a minor part of the US Dollar (e.g.). The vast majority of money really is just tech and trust, just like bitcoin.

      (I am agreeing with The Hat; just saying s/he understated his/her case.)

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    4. "(I am agreeing with The Hat; just saying s/he understated his/her case.)"

      The pronoun you're looking for is 'it'.

      Delete
  11. "... Indeed, Rabbi Moshe Meiselman goes to great lengths to explain why the account of Noah's Ark cannot be reconciled with science in any way, as a sort of bizarre purging effort to make people reject rationalism. . . . "

    That's a _very_ dangerous approach to take! The danger being that the person doesn't reject rationalism, but instead rejects the Torah!

    Toward the end of the Marx Brothers' "Duck Soup", there's the immortal line:

    . . . "Well, who ya gonna believe, me, or your own eyes?"

    It's never a safe challenge to offer.

    . Charles

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    1. I prefer Adam Savage's formulation: "I reject your reality and substitute my own."

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    2. Your reminiscing the Marx Brothers brought joy to my heart. Absolutely loved them and Groucho was sharp as a razor. You can watch him in action on YOUTUBE sear h You Bet Your Life. ACJA

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    3. There is no such danger, most so-called "rationalists" have already rejected the Torah. Anybody who makes his acceptance of the Torah conditional upon having satisfactory answers to all his questions has already rejected the Torah. The danger is in the promotion of the secularist, so-called "rationalist" approach.

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    4. "There is no such danger, most so-called "rationalists" have already rejected the Torah. Anybody who makes his acceptance of the Torah conditional upon having satisfactory answers to all his questions has already rejected the Torah. "

      So if a so-called rationalist makes his acceptance of the Torah conditional upon having satisfactory answers to SOME his questions, that would be OK?

      Or is not okay to have questions to start with? Or does it depend on the question?

      What if this so-called rationalist has found answers that are satisfactory to him, but not satisfactory to you?
      Do you have questions that have not been satisfactorily answered, despite you accepting the Torah unconditionally?

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    5. "So if a so-called rationalist makes his acceptance of the Torah conditional upon having satisfactory answers to SOME his questions, that would be OK?" -No. But I don't think there is anybody who doesn't have satisfactory answers to some questions. I think the Torah itself answers some of the most important questions of life, like what the point of life is, or what happens to us after death.

      "Or is not okay to have questions to start with? Or does it depend on the question?" -it's ok to have good questions, not dumb ones. See this
      http://www.rationalistjudaism.com/2022/10/anti-rationalism-and-charedi-vote.html

      "Do you have questions that have not been satisfactorily answered, despite you accepting the Torah unconditionally?"- of course, tons. For example, צדיק ורע לו רשע וטוב. Or the Holocaust, related. Or many seeming סתירות in Chazal/Halacha. Or many seemingly unreasonable halachos.

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    6. "What if this so-called rationalist has found answers that are satisfactory to him, but not satisfactory to you?" - then I will explain why they are not satisfactory, or, as is more often the case, point out out the errors in his answers

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    7. The presence of a live olive tree growing leaves so soon after the flood implies that the flooded area was miraculously restored.

      The Chizquni asks how Noach knew it didn't float in from Israel. He suggests that the fact that it looked torn from a tree by the dove's beak shows it was on a local tree, and not floating in from the shores of the flood.

      Someone who believes in a local flood would have the same issue. So, the leaf had to be from a tree which should have been unable to be more than a seedling growing in the mud. Being drowned and in the dark for a year means any trees would have been newly sprouted. I really see no way to avoid accepting that something nature-defying happened to restore the world after the flood.

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    8. "The Chizquni asks how Noach knew it didn't float in from Israel."
      ר' לוי אמר מארץ ישראל הביאה שלא נשטפה במבול.
      וצ"ע

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    9. I figured Happy's response to Ephraim's question of "what about having SOME answers" would be we don't need any a priori answers: Naaseh v'Nishma!

      But specifically on this comment of Happy:
      "I think the Torah itself answers some of the most important questions of life, like what the point of life is, or what happens to us after death." -
      I would agree that the Torah tells us the point of life. But it does not tell us a THING about after death. At least, Torah She'b'chsav doesn't - all we know about is, "Going down to She'ol," which to the best of our understanding is going to the grave or maybe a dark pit. Does Torah She'b'al Peh add to this? Sure, but that is aggadic, and as per Ramban and others, Aggada is not binding.

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    10. Yosef, I am pained to have to say this, but unfortunately, your hashkafah seems tragically, disastrously corrupted. Probably not your fault (see our previous discussions). However, this can be easily rectified if you open up your heart.

      The idea that "aggada is not binding" does not ח"ו mean that we don't accept Chazal's general understanding of the Torah. Certainly not ח"ו regarding such vital and overarching concepts as Olam Habah. ח"ו, ח"ו, ח"ו!!! You cannot use one-liners from the Ramban and others to overturn basic concepts of Judaism, which are infinitely better established than said one-liners. Additionally, the Torah Sheb'chsav of course mentions life after death, that is תחיית המתים.

      Do you accept תחיית המתים????

      Do you think תחיית המתים is just "non-binding aggadah"????

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    11. Forgot to mention, there are plenty of other references to Olam Haba after death in the Torah She'bksav, mentioned by the Rishonim, such as ונכרתה הנפש.

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    12. Happy, I can accept Techiyas HaMeisim as a matter of faith. I can also be intellectually honest and say that references to it in the text are tricky. I can accept that there have been a few episodes of resurrection that actually occurred, as the stories of Eliyahu, Elisha, etc tell us.

      But Techiyas HaMeisim is not actually what I understood you to be referring to anyway! I thought you were talking about "Going to Gan Eden" or "Going to Gehenom," neither of which are in the text at all. I thought you were talking about what happens after death, not what happens AFTER what happens after death. That is something completely different.

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    13. And as far as Kares goes, telling us "you're gonna miss out" without telling us WHAT you will be missing does not really count as "telling us what happens after death." The best is that it implies that there could be cool stuff that the soul does or gets. No specifics are provided.

      And again, this is not what creates my hashkafah - I do accept Torah Sheb'al Peh. I merely am responding to your claim that the Torah says what happens after death.

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    14. Yosef, your main and critical error is the first, that ח"ו the Torah sheBaal Peh about Olam Haba is "agadda that is not binding". No, ח"ו to say such a thing. That IS the Torah! Somebody who is kofer in that is kofer in the Torah, no less than somebody who is kofer in מעמד הר סיני.

      Enough with the pretend "intellectual honesty" which is just code for "I can be kofer in the Torah without admitting to it", itself not so "intellectually honest".

      I never said we know the exact details of what happens after death. Neither the Torah Shebksav nor the Torah SheBaal Peh is clear enough about that. I just said the Torah tells us what happens to us after death. I meant generally.

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    15. Discussing techiyas hameisim isn't a question of whether aggadita is binding. It's a matter of halakhah.

      Say someone pours me a cup of wine. To avoid extraneous issues, let's assume we know he isn't a tinoq shenishba. If the person doesn't believe that anything in sefer Bereishis, such as Avraham, is historical, that wine is kosher. If he doesn't believe in techiyas hameisim, he is a kofeir (a subclass of heretics), and the wine he poured is stam yeinam.

      Meanwhile, when you talk about aggadita, you end up potentially discussing disjoint things.

      Much of aggadita is wrapped in stories. Everyone agrees that these stories are meshalim, that one has to peel to get to the truth. The question is, who or Who wrote the mashal -- is it a just a story repeated by people to add force and color to a meaningful point, or is something that actually happened because HQBH wanted to make a meaningful point?

      Until the 20th century or so, perhaps late 19th, the consensus was that these stories were not told with any interest in history. "Historians" in Chazal's era, e.g. Herodotus, didn't distinguish between commonly accepted myths and actual historical events. And uniquely Chazal's interest is in teaching how to live, I doubt they had a unique interest in historicity.

      Until the Orthodox Counter-Reformation, this was uncontroversial. I've collected quotes to this effect from R’ Saadia Gaon, the Rambam, his son R’ Avraham, the Maharsha, the Maharal, the Vilna Gaon, R’ Hirsch, R’ Yisrael Salanter, etc…

      Then there is the nimshal of the story, or the ideas relayed outright in aggadita or midrash without a story. Then the question becomes, "What does 'binding' mean?" There is no pesaq, so there is no concept of an opinion from a primary source that is no longer viable -- unless we cross the laws of apiqoreis, min or kofeir.

      Rejection doesn't make one a kofeir, if that's what talking about ideas being "binding" means.

      And we find rishonim giving new explanations of pesuqim all the time. So, it doesn't seem to be a problem adding thoughts to the pasuq different than Chazal's (or Rashi's), even if those thoughts disagree. Shiv'im panim leTorah and all, there could be conflicting lessons for life Hashem "Intended" different people take from the same words.

      I know what "binding" means in a legal context. But when you get beyond halakhah? I don't know what one means by the word. To be binding means that there is a norm that must be conformed to -- that's halakhah, no?

      And yet... I can't think of someone diverging from mesoretic approaches to aggadita as far as (my example above) saying there was no Avraham, Yitzchaq, Yaaqov, Rachel, Lei'ah, the 12 sons... as *really* following the Torah. No matter how often I tell myself "it's not one of the 13 iqarim".

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    16. Micha, not sure if your comment was directed to me or Yosef. I agree with most of your comment.

      I don't like the word "binding" for this, to me it is more of a question of true or false. It is clear that Olam Haba/Techias Hameisim is an integral part of the Torah, no less than Yetzias Mitzrayim. If we believe in ANY mesorah baal Peh, this would make it to the top of the list, more than almost any halachos, even more than halachos l'Moshe M'Sinai. This goes far beyond precise definitions that we try to formulate, like "halacha", "aggada", or "hashkafa". It is simply a FOUNDATION of the Torah that we received, mostly baal Peh, but also hinted to b'Ksav. And I am not even relying on the Rambam's 13 Ikkarim for this, this is just obvious from the entire mesorah we received baal Peh. And moreover, we could not imagine a Torah without this foundation. It would be completely different religion.

      It is not in any way like individual aggados, where we can say "mashal" or "not binding".

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    17. "If the person doesn't believe that anything in sefer Bereishis, such as Avraham, is historical, that wine is kosher. If he doesn't believe in techiyas hameisim, he is a kofeir (a subclass of heretics), and the wine he poured is stam yeinam."-I know it sounds like this from the Rambam, but I don't agree, it makes no sense to me. The Avos are an absolutely essential part of our Torah as well. I'm pretty sure the Sefer HaIkarim also disagrees.

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    18. I think somebody who denies the historicity of the Avos would be included in one who denies the Torah, since there is no possible, serious interpretation of the Torah that could allow their non-historicity.

      The Ikkarim says (1:23)

      גם לא מנינו אמונת היות השכינה שורה בישראל, והיות האש יורדת מן השמים על מזבח העולה, והיות הכהן נענה באורים ותומים וכיוצא בהן, לפי שאלו נכללות באמונת הנסים והנפלאות שהיו בתורה בכלל, ואין ראוי למנות אלו יותר משאר הנסים, כאמונת בקיעת ים סוף, או פתיחת הארץ ובליעת קרח ועדתו, ושנכנסו חיים שאולה, ולהורות על הפלגת הנס שסתמה הארץ את פיה עליהם, כמו שאמר הכתוב ותכס עליהם הארץ, שלא כדרך הבקיעה הנעשית על ידי הרעש שהיא נשארת כך בקועה תמיד, כי כל זה וכיוצא בו בכלל האמונה בתורה ובכל הנסים המסופרים בה. ואולם השש אמונות שזכרנו אמנם מנינו אותן להיותן אמונות מקובלות באומה מיוחדות לקיום עקרי התורה ושרשיה תמיד, וקיום התורה בכל זמן תלוי בהן אף על פי שאינן שרשים אליה, כי כבר יצוייר מציאותה זולתן כמו שבארנו, והכופר בהן יקרא מין, אף על פי שאינו כופר בתורה, ואין לו חלק לעולם הבא.

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    19. Once again, Techiyas HaMeisim is not "aggadeta that is not binding." Details about golden tables with three legs or rooms where we learn Torah or seven houses for different classes of tzadikkim - these are the aggadeta that "tell us what happens after death." And these tales to me are Chazal expanding on what the Torah actually said, which is almost nothing - not "generally" anything. Nothing. (See Iyov for example - Hashem doesn't answer Iyov's cries with "Don't worry! In Olam Haba you'll be rewarded!" For whatever reason, He chose to emphasize the miniscule nature of Man next to the Infinity and Eternity that is God, but it means that we missed out on a possible clarification of Olam Haba. This is not a critique of Sefer Iyov; the aforementioned lesson has obvious value.)

      Anyway, I made a comment about a fact (the lack of detail of Olam Haba in Torah Shebichsav), and you made it all about hashkafa (belief in Techiyas HaMeisim). The fact that you believe that they are the same thing is perhaps a major symptom of the rationalist-nonrationalist divide.

      BTW, Happy, I absolutely agree with you that the stories in Sefer Bereishis are on a different level from aggadeta. Sure, there are aggadic stories ABOUT the Avos, so perhaps one is within bounds if one has issues with Avraham in the kivshan HaEish or Eliezer fighting the 4 kings all by himself or whatever, but to deny the existence of the Avos themselves is a totally different scale.

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    20. And I'm really sorry, but show me a passuk that clearly says "Hey everyone! In the future, the righteous will come back to life!" It is intellectually honest to recognize that we have faith in Techiyas Hameisim DESPITE the lack of such verses. We learn it from remazim and oblique references. I don't see how this qualifies as being a kofer. Doesn't it sound like the opposite of a kofer? In fact, someone who insists that they need a blatant pasuk and does not rely on Chazal might be considered a teensy bit koferdik.

      There are oblique references to lots of things. We learn out halachic details from individual letters and word repetitions, etc. And yet we all follow those. Shechitah, anyone? Acknowledging that these details are not explicitly written is not "code for 'I can be kofer in the Torah without admitting to it,'" it is honest.

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    21. Didn't you say that all we know about for sure is Sheol, the "dark pit"? Anyways, I'm glad we can now agree that the Torah (which of course includes the Torah Shebaal Peh) informs us about Olam Haba + Techias Hameisim.

      For Techias Hameisim, what is wrong with the verse

      דניאל יב
      וְרַבִּ֕ים מִיְּשֵׁנֵ֥י אַדְמַת־עָפָ֖ר יָקִ֑יצוּ אֵ֚לֶּה לְחַיֵּ֣י עוֹלָ֔ם וְאֵ֥לֶּה לַחֲרָפ֖וֹת לְדִרְא֥וֹן עוֹלָֽם׃

      and
      יחזקאל לז
      כה אמר יי' אני פותח את קברותיכם ‏והעליתי אתכם מקברותיכם עמי והבאתי אתכם אל אדמת ישראל, ונתתי רוחי בכם

      I agree that the written Torah does not expound on it at length, like many other significant things the Torah does not expound at length. But as Rav Saadiah says, these pesukim are enough, since there is no reason to think they are a משל, and they don't sound like a משל in context). And of course, the most important thing here, the Mesorah baal Peh.

      If I had never encountered the term "intellectual honesty" in regards to Torah before, I would have no problem with how you used it. The problem is, in the overwhelming majority of cases, it is used insinuate that one is being more truthful with one's approach than Chazal and our holy Sages throughout history, ח"ו. And in the vast majority of these cases, it is used to insinuate kefirah. And I find it revolting and vomit-inducing. But since that is probably not how you meant it, I apologize for jumping to conclusions.

      Delete
    22. Just one more quibble with this line "And these tales to me are Chazal expanding on what the Torah actually said, which is almost nothing - not "generally" anything." I am not talking about tales like this, or how many rooms their are in Gehinnom, and what kind of precious stones their are in Gan Eden. When I say "general", I am talking about the fact that we will continue to exist, to be conscious, and we will be rewarded and punished after death. This is an example of the Torah (mostly the Oral Torah) answering a very important and pressing question.

      Delete
  12. The attempt to interpret Chumash in line with empirical fact does not fall into the rationalist / mystical divide. Here's the Ramban on Bereishis 9:12

    זאת אות הברית אשר אני נותן המשמע מן האות הזה שלא היה קשת בענן ממעשה בראשית ועתה ברא ה' חדשה לעשות קשת בשמים ביום ענן... ואנחנו על כרחנו נאמין לדברי היונים שמלהט השמש באויר הלח יהיה הקשת בתולדה כי בכלי מים לפני השמש יראה כמראה הקשת וכאשר נסתכל עוד בלשון הכתוב נבין כן כי אמר את קשתי "נתתי" בענן ולא אמר "אני נותן" בענן כאשר אמר זאת אות הברית אשר "אני נותן" ומלת קשתי מורה שהיתה לו הקשת תחלה ולכן נפרש הכתוב הקשת אשר נתתי בענן מיום הבריאה תהיה מן היום הזה והלאה לאות ברית ביני וביניכם שכל זמן שאראנה אזכיר כי ברית שלום ביני וביניכם

    This despite the fact that one could easily have learned that the observations of the Greek philosophers were only valid for the new post-flood natural order (as other rishonim do in fact claim).

    The habit of rishonim to interpret texts in line with empirical fact is clear and undeniable. That this ban claims otherwise is nothing short of mystifying.

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    1. "The habit of rishonim to interpret texts in line with empirical fact is clear and undeniable. " -agreed. But only when they think their interpretation actually works. The Ramban you quoted was totally satisfied with his pshat in את הקשת נתתי, but elsewhere does indeed understand certain things changed in the post-flood natural order. The problems start when you insist on a natural explanation in regard to A. something that is clearly not natural, or B. you can't find a natural explanation in concordance with your empirical facts, so you "move beyond concordance" and are simply kofer in major parts of the Torah.

      Delete
    2. Happygoluckypersonage - the text of the ban on פשוטו של מקרא seems to prohibit EVER seeking a rationalistic or natural explanation for something.

      We can debate when a "rationalist" explanation is a good one and when it isn't. I don't think that is the issue. The issue is if one can ever ask "rationalist" and/or pshat questions and seek "rationalist" and/or pshat answers.

      Do you agree the text of the ban seems to prohibit the question asked by the Ramban on Bereishis 9:12? If you disagree with my reading of the text of the ban, please explain what you think the signators on the ban meant and how that fits with their words.

      I agree that it may be very improper to use a Chumash like Pshuto shel Mikra to teach children. However, this concern does not appear to be the simple reading of the ban.

      P.S.
      Additionally, the ban seems to prohibit see pshat. Rashi on Shir HaShirim (1:1) defines a major component as fitting the words and the context. The Ramchal in Sefer Higayon says the "best" perush of a text is the perush that requires adding the least words. On this basis, Rishonim requently challenge Rashi's pshat explanations. (Rishonim didn't have the Ramchal's Sefer Higayon but clearly operated with this approach to textual explanation.) Is this entire approach also prohibited?

      Delete
    3. Happy... We assume with the Tanach that the world is as naturally perceived unless we have a strong reason to think otherwise. Yetziat Mizraim is a prime example. Otherwise it's open to interpretation except when specifically says it's a miracle.Noah's Ark and the entire event can be a miracle or bound with naturalistic parts and interpretations.They don't have to contradict each other.

      Delete
    4. @A Thinking
      You seem to be under the impression that I am defending the ban. That is not what I am doing here. I am rather setting the record straight with regard to "rationalism" and interpreting the Torah. I don't agree with the ban, certainly not in its fine details. However, I wrote a comment defending it in the original post.

      Delete
    5. Moshe- "unless we have a strong reason to think otherwise" - That's the rub isn't it? If you have no good alternative interpretation, that is a strong reason. But I agree with your comment.

      Delete
  13. A commentator above pointed out that Rav Sa'adiah Gaon accepted the principle of resurrection despite his also acknowledging it as irrational. The commentator cited this as proof that even for Rav Sa'adiah, rationality and reasonableness must give way to tradition.

    The commentator used this as a reproach to R' Slifkin, for his insistence that the Tzohar need conform with rationality and reasonableness.

    (Before I go on, let me state at the outset, that I have no intention to defend the above statement, nor what I will say below, from the commentator in question, whose track record is to leave endless strings of comments that will exhaust any sane person who even attempts to disagree or dialog with him. So, I will concede from the outset, above commentator, that the kashias and diyukim you'll be making that I misrepresented you or misrepresent Rav Sa'adiah are 100 % correct. I am a lowly fool, incapable of intelligent discourse and therefore will not engage.

    For everyone else, however, I would point to (but will not defend) the following, from Stanford History of Philosophy's entry on Rav Sa'adiah. Readers can judge for themselves its relevance to this question.

    https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/saadya/#9

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    1. "I will not engage, I have no intention of defending my comment, or anything else I say, but I'm gonna comment anyways!!!"- a bit confused, are we?

      Delete
    2. Shimshon at Nov.29,22 at 6:24 AM.Mesorah? Rav Hai Gain and Rav Sherirah Gaon state that Aggadatot and Medrashim are not obligatory. The Mesorah is faulty.

      Delete
    3. Yehuda, that's retarded. Your claim does not follow from your assertion, even if true. The entire mesorah? Specifically about the flood in the time of Enosh?

      Delete
    4. Yes, that's right, I posted for the sake of those who would like to see what the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy says, not to give my own opinion.

      I consider them more qualified than me to explain Rav Sa'adia's acceptance of resurrection (according to them, it DID have some rational basis).

      Those who value Stanford Philosophy's opinion are welcome to look there -- and I was trying to be helpful in pointing that out.

      (Amazing, isn't it, when someone posts something in order to be helpful rather than out of ego, boredom, and anger, no? I knew you'd have a tough time relating.)

      Delete
    5. Thank you for that helpful context. What exactly do you see in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy that you don't see in Emunos V'Deios itself? I looked at the paragraph discussing resurrection and I don't see anything wrong with it. I have no problem with the assertion that completely supernatural miracles like Creation and Resurrection have a rational basis. Do you? But if one's definition of "rationalism" = natural, not miraculous, then obviously there is a problem.

      Delete
  14. Friendly SpelllcheckerNovember 30, 2022 at 7:52 AM

    "but fortunatel I was able to go down the block" -- Add a "y" and your essay will be perfect.

    ReplyDelete
  15. Shimshon at Nov. 29,22 at 11:35 PM . You called the Gaonim " retard"! Use your common sense!Typical Yeshiva baloney. Rav Yehudah Gersuni ztzal affirmed this in a shiur where I was present.

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    1. Yehuda, you retard, I am responding to your statement: "The Mesorah is faulty."

      Please read this slowly: Your. Claim. Does. Not. Follow. Your. Assertion.

      Delete
    2. Who isn't retarded according to Shimshon? Besides for people throwing out money on Vox day, I mean.

      Delete
    3. Retard:

      Like! Thanks for so clearly articulating what we've all been thinking here all along.

      Delete
    4. For what it is worth, when I see someone call another a "retard", my mental image is of someone too young or too imature for me to take their opinion seriously. I am sure I am not alone in that reaction.

      Name calling undermines your say, not enhances it.

      (Aside from being a violation of אונאת דברים.)

      Delete
    5. Micha, pure projection. Consider a mental upgrade. If I cared what you think I wouldn't use the word. Is "retard" better or worse than "hater of Hashem"? Or "heretic"?

      Delete
  16. 1. is there any suggestion the gedolim of america who signed, were shown this pamphlet?
    i heard that the author of the pamphlet is a bit of a wacky dude with a website full of conspiracy theories. and that he's behind the gedolim signing

    2. israeli gedolim far less strident in their views on the PSM

    3. if corect, can someone with more time than me do a line by line rebuttal of all the pamphlet's taanos? I suspect many of the so called heretic sources can be attributed to one of the classic meforshim. (whether or not PSM had them in mind is a separate point, but he still has a chezkas kashrus so i would say yes)

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  17. Shimshon. It is true that most of the Gaonim stated that,"אין סומכים על אגדות או מדרשים" ,They mention different reasons ,but one of them is that in certain circumstances the Mesorah is not correct or is not a Mesorah at all.

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  18. Shimshon. It is true that most of the Gaonim stated that,"אין סומכים על אגדות או מדרשים" ,They mention different reasons ,but one of them is that in certain circumstances the Mesorah is not correct or is not a Mesorah at all.

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    1. Shimshon, etc Nov. 30,22 at 1:30 PM Source : "עד היום הזה" by הרב אמנון בזק.Chapter ,פשוטו של מקרה ומדרש אגדה.

      Delete
    2. For a review of the sefer, see here:
      https://traditiononline.org/review-to-this-very-day/

      Delete
  19. Who can claim to intellectual good faith when they admit to forced or unlikely interpretations of scripture on the basis of a specific stated agenda? The punishment of kares seems to be most plausibly an early form of Cherem, not evidence of a belief in the afterlife. An eye for an eye can only plausibly mean what it says.

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    1. Except that we know from elsewhere in chumash that "tachas" is an idiom for payment. (E.g. from this week's parashah, Bereishis 30:15 "לָכֵן֙ יִשְׁכַּ֤ב עִמָּךְ֙ הַלַּ֔יְלָה תַּ֖חַת דּוּדָאֵ֥י בְנֵֽךְ -- therefore [Yaaqov] will lay with you tonight in exchange for your son's duda'im." See also Bereishis 44:4 "לָכֵן֙ יִשְׁכַּ֤ב עִמָּךְ֙ הַלַּ֔יְלָה תַּ֖חַת דּוּדָאֵ֥י בְנֵֽךְ" and elsewhere.)

      My question has been why the gemara calls it a derashah, "tashas" meaning payment is peshat! Maybe you need a derashah to prove the word is meant idiomatically rather than literally?

      I would raise this as a barrier to your general assumption that you know idiomatic Biblical Hebrew (דברה תורה בלשון בני אדם) to know what a verse "most plausibly" meant.

      I never heard of people having problems with "qareis" before, but here's an off-the-cuff thought. Death can be phrased, "וַיֵּאָ֖סֶף אֶל־עַמָּֽיו -- and he was gathered to his nation" (e.g., Yishmael's death, Bereishis 25:17). So, is it so obvious that "וְנִכְרְתָ֛ה הַנֶּ֥פֶשׁ הַהִ֖וא מִקֶּ֥רֶב עַמֶּֽיהָ -- and this soul shall be cut off from its nation" (Shemos 31:14; or "... from Adas Yisrael" and other variants) is not speaking about the afterlife?

      Delete
    2. "Who can claim to intellectual good faith when they admit to forced or unlikely interpretations of scripture on the basis of a specific stated agenda? "

      That question assumes that interpretations must be free of stated agendas and may not be forced or unlikely. Why not?

      In any case, the "eye for an eye" is a canard. An eye for an eye can't plausibly mean what it says.

      Delete
    3. Mr Berger: I am familiar with that Rashi. But it seems to me that what ever the word "tachas" means, the word "ayin" means "eye". Whether it is an eye in payment of an eye, or an eye for an eye, or an eye in compensation of an eye, the medium of exchange seems to be actual human eyeballs, just as the payment for Yakov's attentions was actual jasmines.

      -

      I agree that "yeasef el amav" carries an implication that belonging to a people transcends a single lifetime. I don't think it speaks to an afterlife and certainly doesn't speak to resurrection.

      -

      It is not obvious to me that nefesh means "spiritual soul" as in Berishis it says animals have a nefesh.

      -

      Mr Ephraim, everyone is entitled to their interpretations / chassidish veretelech / bon mots to their hearts' content. That is the essence of religious engagement with scripture. But that has nothing at all to do with the rigorous and literal truths of intellectual good faith.

      -

      Final example. The Rabbis state that a bas Cohen who had sex was killed only if she was betrothed. Haikar chasser min hasefer.

      Delete
    4. Why is anybody taking Hat seriously. His juvenile arguments are not worthy of kindergarteners. His knowledge of Tanach is apparently limited to whichever Biblical Criticism books he read. Lol.

      Delete
    5. At the risk of perpetuating this beyond all sanity:
      Micha, sure, Kares and ye'asef el amav indeed sound like references to an afterlife. But that's all they are - references. They can be understood in non-afterlife ways also, should you want to read them that way. Of course, most of us, myself included certainly DO understand kares as referring to one's Olam Haba status [at least in part bc there is dying childless which also might be a level of kares]. But you cannot tell me that these pesukim "tell us what happens after death."

      Delete
    6. Micha

      "tachas" means in exchange. what is your proof it is is an idiom for payment?

      Also Josephus considers "karet" as the death penalty. which makes him a Saducee, not just a politcial sympathiser

      Delete
    7. Lol, Chazal also considers "karet" as the death penalty, meted out by God. Josephus may have been ignorant about many things, but he was no Saducee, and was much more knowledgeable than Hat and the other kofrim who comment here.

      Delete
    8. Josephus considered it the death penalty, meted out by Man
      https://theisraelbible.com/karet-the-ultimate-punishment-that-is-hard-to-understand/
      The first-century Romano-Jewish historian Flavius Josephus defined karet: “To those who were, guilty of such insolent behavior, he [Moses] ordered death for his punishment.” This seemed to imply that karet was identical to the court-mandated death penalties. This opinion is perplexing as it fails to explain why this term is used instead of ‘he shall be put to death’.

      Delete
    9. https://anastrophe.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/perseus/citequery3.pl?dbname=GreekNov21&getid=1&query=Joseph.%20AJ%203.270

      He also forbade a man to lie with his wife when she was defiled by her natural purgation: and not to come near brute beasts; nor to approve of the lying with a male, which was to hunt after unlawful pleasures on account of beauty. To those who were guilty of such insolent behavior, he ordained death for their punishment.

      Delete
    10. Wow, that is seriously weak stuff, considering the other two actually have a judicial death penalty, and how weak the inference is. Either he simply made a mistake conflating them, or he was truly ignorant about Kares (like he was about many other things), or he means death whether by man or God. Really dumb to infer from this that he was a Sadducee, as anybody with even the slightest familiarity with him would know.

      Delete
    11. happygoluckpersonage,

      On the subject of Josephus's affiliation, wikipedia has this to say:
      "Josephan scholarship in the 19th and early 20th centuries took an interest in Josephus's relationship to the sect of the Pharisees.[citation needed] It consistently portrayed him as a member of the sect and as a traitor to the Jewish nation—a view which became known as the classical concept of Josephus.[34] In the mid-20th century a new generation of scholars[who?] challenged this view and formulated the modern concept of Josephus. They consider him a Pharisee but restore his reputation in part as patriot and a historian of some standing. In his 1991 book, Steve Mason argued that Josephus was not a Pharisee but an orthodox Aristocrat-Priest who became associated with the philosophical school of the Pharisees as a matter of deference, and not by willing association.[35]

      Here is a paper by Mason (York U.), "Flavius Josephus and the Pharisees" https://bibleinterp.arizona.edu/articles/2003/04/mas278001

      You don't have to buy this prof's theory. But it should make you question "as anybody with even the slightest familiarity with him would know."

      Either way, even if he saw himself as a Pharisee, he spends a lot of time criticizing mainstream Pharisaic positions. If I were foolish enough to psychoanalyze someone without meeting them and from 2,000 years of cultural separation, I would say he acts exactly like someone who went OTD (he does like Philo, after all) but is still emotionally tied to the community.

      Delete
    12. Thanks. The prof is not saying he was a Sadducee. He says in the conclusion

      "It is perhaps natural to ask: If Josephus was not (and did not claim to be) a Pharisee, then what was he? To which group did he belong? To answer such a question we need first, however, to reject the old and invalid assumption that all ancient Judeans belonged to one of the three schools mentioned by Josephus. This assumption was the basis for much scholarly nonsense in the past... There is no reason to assume that all or most Judeans, especially those of the aristocratic élite, had a particular school affiliation."

      But it is definitely erroneous to call him a Sadducee based on such diyukim as the previous commenter made.

      Delete
    13. Fine, but I didn't think that mattered. He was clearly using "Saducee" as a stand-in for "what he says isn't our tradition anyway". And even if anonymous really meant "Saducee", focusing on his word usage is beside the point. His point was dismissing use of Josephus to know what "kareis" meant.

      Which is why that was all I set out to show... That one needn't be entirely ignorant of who Josephus was to think he often said things that our tradition disagrees with.

      Josephus quotes Philo admiringly. And Philo, like the Sadducees, didn't believe in a world-to-come, so kareis couldn't mean being cut off from it.

      I actually think the position that kareis means something other than "death by Divine 'Court'" was a product of the Rationalists, i.e. the Scholastic / Kalam-like rishonim. Like the Rambam -- eternal life is only for those who know G-d well enough to share some echo of His Timelessness. (Through yichud hayodei'ah vehayadu'ah.)

      Delete
    14. Ok, I'll take "people using terms incorrectly" for $3. But other than that, I agree that Josephus was ignorant/didn't keep in many aspects of our tradition. I believe he would have been considered an עם הארץ rather than a kofer. As I'm sure you know, he quotes all three group's views of the Afterlife, and he brings only the Sadducees as rejecting it completely.

      In any case, regarding kareis, the Ramban ויקרא יח makes diyukim about the different types of kareis, and learns some of them are physical death, and some of them afterlife punishment. Then he says "ותשכיל כי הכריתות הנזכרות בנפש בטחון גדול בקיום הנפשות אחרי המיתה ובמתן השכר בעולם הנשמות..."

      Delete
  20. Yes a fan at Nov. 1,22 at 5:43 AM. How sad that you who claim to be " /חרד לדבר הה" demonstrates disgusting "Midot". This is what you learned in your Yeshiva? But when it comes to your ideological "enemies" as you define then anything goes!? What about "It's ways ( the Torah) are ways of pleaseantness and all it's paths are peace." דרכיה דרכי נועם וכל נתיבותיה שלום.

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    Replies
    1. Huh? Why do you think I'm Haredi? And what is wrong with what I wrote?

      Delete
  21. Shimshon at Dec. 1,22 at 8:54 PM. I was mistaken to give you the benefit of the doubt ! You say,'Is "retard" better or worse than "hater of Hashem"?Or "heretic"? You. hide behind religion. You're G-d's soldier? You're the same miserable soul you always were. You just cover it with pietistic buzz words. Go back and learn your Aleph Bet!

    .

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    1. Yehuda, who's hiding? Not I. Shaarei Teshuva, Gate 3:160 (translation by Feldheim): The aspect of "haters of Hashem" can also be found at times among those who perform mitzvos and are scrupulous in avoiding sin, both in deed and in speech -- if they are pained and inwardly troubled when their friends engage in Torah study, and it bothers them when others serve Hashem and fear Him.

      Now please, answer my question. Is calling someone a "retard" better or worse than calling someone, as per Rabbenu Yonah, a "hater of Hashem." Personally, I would rather be called the former than the latter, but that's just me. Maybe you prefer the latter?

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    2. Shimshon,

      You are presenting a false dichotomy. Is it better to call someone a "retard" or a "hater of hashem"? In almost all situations neither is acceptable. And you certainly can't point to Sharei Teshuva (written over 600 years ago) to say, "He did it, it must be okay." There are tons of things that people (even Rabbis, gasp!) did 10, 50, 100, 1000, 2000, 5000 years ago that are no longer okay.

      Thank G-d, the world is progressing towards a more perfect place where, through human endeavor (helped along in part through Jews striving to be an Ohr LaGoyim), we are being Metaken Olam to create a Dira for Hashem in this world.

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    3. Cheap shot! You respond to Shimshon after Slifkin announces he was banned.

      A common theme in many of your posts (as Mekharker has pointed out extensively) is that you think that the classic Jewish texts expire from relevancy. This is the opinion of the Reform. To us believing Orthodox Jews who adhere to authentic Judaism, the classic Jewish texts are what DEFINE Judaism. Not whatever Jefferey happens to think in 2022.

      You seem to be one of the only commenters on this site that do not understand this. Go back to school.

      I see you left off with a joke that the world is progressing towards a more perfect place. Seriously? The frenzied attempted normalization of everything perverted and depraved is considered progressing to a more perfect place? Good one!

      Delete
    4. Shimshon,

      I made a functional point, not a moral one. I told you that (1) it obviously wouldn't get the person you're replying you to take you any more seriously, and (2) makes many of us watching your exchange think less of your post, not more.

      Focusing on whether or not we ought to think less of what you wrote missed my point.


      In general, I assume someone who feels a need to name call doesn't have the facts to make his point. And again, whether I should have that first impression or not doesn't change the actual first impression.

      ----------------

      But since you asked:

      If one is speaking halachically, and objectively saying "X is a hater of Torah" on technical grounds, that's one thing. And then you have to get into questions in hilkhos tokhachah -- when it is obligatory to speak, and when it is obligatory not to.

      If one is just being insulting, that whole different kettle of fish. And disparaging remarks about someone's intelligence would be somewhat similar. The worse thing about using "hater of Torah" as an insult is that it is more likely to be taken as objectively true. The worse thing about name calling is that it offends both the person being taunted and the people who care for / about those who actually have intellectual disabilities.

      Delete
    5. Oooops, if I responded to Shimshon after he was banned, that's on me. I didn't notice the announcement of the ban.

      Some contents of Jewish texts may be eternally useful, some were certainly a product of the time. If your big concern is that I don't think we should learn from prior generations that arguing by simply hurling insults is appropriate and that civil discourse regarding the topic at hand is more appropriate, then fine. you got me. I'm not changing that position just because someone who lived 600 years ago acted differently.

      If you think Judaism SHOULD be DEFINED by hurling insults because a few insults HAPPEN to be in a book written 600 years ago, then I think it is you who should go back to school.

      Finally, what I left off with was not a joke, but a fervent hope and prayer. If you don't think that you practicing your Judaism is making the world better, then why do you do it???

      Delete
    6. Huh? Shaarei Teshuva hurling insults? Not sure what you are referring to, care to explain? Perhaps you misunderstood Shimshon to begin with.

      We do Mitzvos because it is God's will and brings Him pleasure. Not to change the world. If the world sits up and takes notice and becomes a better place because of it, that's certainly a wonderful side effect. If I were living to change the world, I would go out and become a climate change activist. Seriously.

      Delete
    7. PB&J, I contrasted Rabbeinu Yonah making a factual statement that is insulting, and deeming it more likely to inspire his audience than turn them off - and thus an appropriate assessment and writing it Is appropriate within the laws of tokhaschah. Not the least bit comparable to Shimshon's sophomoric name calling.

      Delete
    8. PB&J,

      I would have said that we do mitzvos because Hashem wants us to change the world and becomes a better place. As HE prioritizes "better".

      And perhaps we should be climate activists.

      I try to follow Tenu'as haMussar, as it developed in Slabodka and Telzh, and in particular as practiced by R Shimon Yehudah haKohein Shkop zt"l. (But please don't just my ideals by how successfully, or - sadly - not, I follow that aspiration.)

      Here is how R Shimon opens Shaarei Yosher (first words of the haqdamah, translation from Widen Your Tent, Mosaica Press 2019, pg. 45; but that's a self-quote):
      יתברך הבורא ויתעלה היוצר שבראנו בצלמו ובדמות תבניתו, וחיי עולם נטע בתוכנו שיהיה אדיר חפצנו, להיטיב עם זולתנו, ליחיד ולרבים, בהוה ובעתיד, בדמות הבורא כביכול.
      שכל מה שברא ויצר היה רצונו יתברך רק להיטיב עם הנבראים, כן רצונו יתברך שנהלך בדרכיו כאמור ״וְ הָ לַ כְ תָ בִ דְ רָ כָ יו״,
      היינו, שנהיה אנחנו בחירי יצוריו, מגמתנו תמיד להקדיש כוחותינו הגופניים והרוחניים לטובת הרבים, כפי ערכנו, ולדעתי כל ענין זה נכלל במצות ה׳ של ״קְ דֹשִ ים תִ הְ יּו.״
      Blessed shall be the Creator, and exalted shall be the Maker, Who created us in His “Image” and in the likeness of His “Structure,” and planted eternal life within us [i.e. gave us the Torah -mb], so that our greatest desire should be to benefit others, to individuals and to the masses, now and in the future
      in imitation of the Creator (so to speak).
      For everything He created and formed was according to His Will (may it be blessed) only to be good to the creations. So too His Will is that we walk in His Ways. As it says, “and you shall walk in His Ways.” (Devarim 28:9)

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  22. Thank you call for your thoughts, I really enjoyed reading them on my commute through London today and they got me in the mood for Limmud in Birmingham this Christmas, keep up the arguments for the sake of Heaven and thank you Rabbi S for your wise words!

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  23. PB&J,

    yes Shaarei Teshuva hurling insults (per Shimshon).... that's what Shimshon said... he supported his right to call someone a "retard" by referencing Shaarie Teshuva and said, "he did worse" to quote Shimshon:

    "Is calling someone a 'retard' better or worse than calling someone, as per Rabbenu Yonah, a 'hater of Hashem.' Personally, I would rather be called the former than the latter, but that's just me."

    I wasn't saying it myself; I was simply responding to what Shimshon attributed to Shaarei Teshuva. And rather than say "you didn't understand the Shaarei Teshuva;" I was saying essentially: "Even assuming you [shimshon] are correct and he [R' Yona] did so, that doesn't make it okay."

    I would ask Shimshon, but apparently he's been banned. Nevertheless, he really does seem to use Shaarei Teshuva as authority to call people "retards", so I don't think I misunderstood him.

    You might do mitzvot only "because it is God's will and brings Him pleasure. Not to change the world." I also do them to change the world. Noah saved himself, Avraham was the father multitude of nations who brought many people to Avodat Hashem. I (and many other Jews I know) strive to be the progeny of Avraham.



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  24. Jeffrey at Dec. 6, 2022 at 2:57 PM.Shimshon is what we call in Yeshiva "Krum". Finding support for disgusting behavior! Let's call each other names and we will have no civil discourse rather strife and violence!

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  25. Shimshon at Dec.4,2022 at 8:54 PM .
    "The aspect of " haters of Hashem"
    can also be found at times among those who perform
    Mitzvot and are scrupulous in avoiding sin both on feed and in speech, if they are pained and inwardly troubled when their friends engage in Torah study,and it bothers them when when others serve Hashem and does fear him."That would indeed be strange and bespeak a person whose behavior is full of contradictions and perhaps insincere or perhaps unaware of the consequences or implications of his actions.

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  26. Shimshon- (continuation of above post " Your use of the word "retard" does not serve to correct any behavior. It is just your mean, angry, vindictive,self serving, narcissistic behavior! You certainly are far from "scrupulous" religious behavior! I and the other people you call "retard", " haters of those who learn Torah", "heretics" are nothing of the sort.However,in your case it might apply.





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