I'm talking about the cabinet decision yesterday to appoint a state commission of inquiry into the Meron disaster - nearly two months after the tragedy happened. One would expect that after the worst civilian disaster in the history of a country, a commission of inquiry would be established immediately. After the Grenfell Tower fire in England, Prime Minister Theresa May ordered an inquiry the very next day. But here in Israel, the establishment of such a politically independent inquiry was blocked by the charedi political parties, because, as they unwittingly let slip, they didn't want charedi politicians and bureaucrats responsible for the disaster to actually have to shoulder the blame. They only wanted an inquiry in which they would be able to control who does the inquiring.
Meanwhile, a large event took place at Binyanei Ha-Umah to mark the shloshim of the Meron victims. It proclaimed to be about how "HaKadosh Baruch Hu has issued a wake-up call that unity and ahavas Yisrael is the call of the hour," and promoted the concept of charedim learning Torah with non-charedim. It was arranged by Kesher Yehudi, an organization which some would
describe as seeking to unite different sectors of Israeli society, while
others would describe as seeking to do charedi PR/ kiruv with non-charedim. I found the event to be deeply disturbing. The 45 deaths were not caused by a lack of ahavas Yisrael; they were caused by charedi separatism and charedi disregard for civil law and the laws of science. And they want to spin it to be mekarev more people to being charedi?
In case you think that this is too cynical a take, consider this: one of the speakers was none other than Yaffa Deri. That's the wife of Aryeh Deri, perhaps the politician most responsible for the negligence at Meron, who proudly declared before Lag B'Omer that he had managed to prevent any restrictions on the number of people who could attend, because those trying to do so don't appreciate how Rabbi Shimon's merit protects the attendees.
What about the families of the victims? Since they are almost all charedi, naturally some of them are caught up in the charedi Daas Torah/ political spin on things. Still, as noted, they were begging for a state commission of inquiry. And one of the nost prominent families, who are furious with the leadership in their own community that enabled this to happen and sought to prevent a commission of inquiry, made their feelings painfully and blatantly clear. On the tombstones for their sons, the inscriptions end with הי"ד - "May God avenge their blood."
Some are shocked by this phrase, but it is, unfortunately, entirely appropriate. The Torah describes the case of an entirely accidental murder, in which the relative is a goel hadam, one who avenges the blood of the victim. The case of Meron is far worse; it happened due to gross negligence and greed, and justice was being blocked.
It is certainly reasonable for the families of the victims to cry out, "May God avenge their blood." And thanks to the new government of Naftali Bennett, Yair Lapid and others, with which Daas Torah and charedi politicians do not exert influence, this wish can finally be addressed.
"And one of the most prominent families, who are furious with the leadership in their own community that enabled this to happen and sought to prevent a commission of inquiry, made their feelings painfully and blatantly clear. On the tombstones for their sons, the inscriptions end with הי"ד - "May God avenge their blood." Some are shocked by this phrase, but it is, unfortunately, entirely appropriate. The Torah describes the case of an entirely accidental murder, in which the relative is a goel hadam, one who avenges the blood of the victim. The case of Meron is far worse; it happened due to gross negligence and greed, and justice was being blocked"
ReplyDeleteJust goes to show how little you actually know and what dribble you talk.
The HYD that was written on the Matzeveoh (if it was written by the family) was addressed to the POLICE. A friend of mine who is a nephew of the father of the boys that died told me that their whole family have been blaming the police ever since the tragedy happened and believe them to be guilty of gross negligence. Even compensation that they are being offered from the state they consider to be blood money, and a way to silence them.
They may be right and they may be wrong. But one thing is for certain: those words on the Matzevoh have got nothing to do with Charedi leadership. But rather refer to their belief of the police being directly responsible for their murders.
Next time you want to use another persons tragedy to suit your agenda of hate and LH, make sure to at least get the facts right please!
Well, I was given information otherwise. I specifically looked into that possibility and was told that it is NOT aimed at the police. (I would presume that the families are well aware that the entire event was an accident waiting to happen, nothing to do with the police.)
Delete"The Torah describes the case of an entirely accidental murder,"
DeleteNon sequitor.
"make sure to at least get the facts right"
And yet you engage in speculation:
"The HYD that was written on the Matzeveoh (if it was written by the family) was addressed to the POLICE."
"if it was written by the family"? So you don't KNOW the facts.
"A friend of mine who is a nephew of the father of the boys that died told me that their whole family have been blaming the police"
You're story sounds questionable. You say "nephew of the father of the boys". Why not say "cousin of the boys"? Of course, it's possible for him to be a nephew without his uncle's sons being his cousins- but you explain it. And does he know that the WHOLE family blames the cops? Every member of the family?
And yet that sort of blame doesn't seem to fit with the tone of the father's insistence for an inquiry that will prevent further tragedies:
https://www.kikar.co.il/392880.html
"Even compensation that they are being offered from the state they consider to be blood money, and a way to silence them."
Irrelevant to your claim that they blame the cops. There's are other parties that are being blamed- so why would it only be "blood money" in regards to protecting the cops & not other parties?
Well Mr Efrayim believe what you want but those are the facts.
DeleteI knew all along from my friend (Chavrusa) that his cousins all blame the police and at the Shiva they told that there are already attempts being made to "buy them".
When I read this post today I knew that it just could not be as Slifkin wrote, so I called up my friend to confirm. He said that he personally hasn't heard about the HYD but he is absolutely positive knowing his cousins that if they wrote it, they meant the police and not the Charedi leadership. Hence my usage of the phrase if they wrote it.
So he "personally hasn't heard" about the HYD, but he somehow knows in his heart what it must mean.
DeleteI hope you can appreciate that you are not a reliable source of information on this topic. Your source doesn't have any information about it except his gut feeling.
"I found the event to be deeply disturbing. The 45 deaths were not caused by a lack of ahavas Yisrael"
ReplyDeleteNot sure about lack of ahavas Yisrael, but we find all over in our theology that tragedy is caused by sin. So what could be a better tikkun than being mekarev secular people who are עובר על כל התורה כולה on a regular basis? Of course, we also have our sins. But you often complain about chareidi separatism, here they are doing the opposite of separatism, being mekarev secular people to the Torah, what could be better than that?
Kiruv has nothing to do with separatism.
DeleteWhat is kiruv if not the opposite of separatism? What could be a greater chessed than teaching Torah and mitzvos to those who know nothing?
Deleteעובר על כל התורה כולה is a very strong term to use, and one that only someone who knows nothing about Israeli society can use. *No* Israeli, no matter how secular, violates *all* the Torah, and the vast majority keeps at least a good solid chunk, and usually a lot more than that. (Which, by the way, was the case in the whole Jewish world, even heilegeh Eastern Europe, throughout history.)
DeleteOn the other hand, I'm not so sure someone who so casually is motze la'az on millions of Jews can be described as very frum.
Nachum, perhaps it is an exaggeration, I'll fix it for you: They are עובר כמעט על כל התורה כולה. I don't agree that the vast majority keep a good solid chunk, any more than non-Jews keep a good solid chunk. The best you could say is that most are not עובר on לא תרצח. I am not sure what you're doing by pointing to other secular Jews throughout history, is this supposed to be a defense? In either case, isn't it a great thing to be mekarev these poor misguided souls, who have almost no connection to Torah and Mitzvos?
DeleteIt's very funny how you clutch your pearls about being motzi laaz on yidden... on this blog!
Yeah. You don't know what you're talking about.
DeleteNachum, if you are mechallel Shabbos, you are not "keeping a good solid chunk" of the Torah. This is like saying that a serial murderer is "mostly a lawful citizen." Kal v'chomer people who are not just mechallel Shabbos, but keep almost none of the mitzvos. I am not saying they are to blame, the Chazon Ish famously called them tinokos shenishbu. But it's a terrible pity, and is exacerbated by their terrible secular leadership, and we should do all we can to be mekarev the poor souls.
DeleteThe anti-Slifkin trolls usually give the impression they've never stepped foot in Israel or met an Israeli Charedi.
DeleteWithout getting into this particular debate, happygolucky does make a good point: One can't exactly complain about a commenter being motzi laaz on entire populations of Jews, when the whole purpose of this blog is now to do precisely that about Charedim. Restraint and sensibility went out the door here, apparently, when the doctorate came in.
DeleteThey've certainly never met a non-charedi Israeli.
DeleteWhat exactly is the argument here, that actually most Israelis are shomer Shabbos? And if I would have met more of these tzadikim, I would have realized that? Well guess what guys?-I have a bridge to sell you.
DeleteNo, they're not Shomer Shabbos, but they are very far from the sinners or even the misguided souls you describe them as. They all live in Israel, most participate in the army, many keep many mitzvos, and all are decent human beings. I agree with Nachum here. It doesn't take much to see their good side. Halevai we would all be mature enough to see and say the same about all other Jews.
DeleteA. Schreiber, I suppose it is good you are being melamed zechus on these people. In the spirit of R. Levi Yitchak of Berditchev, who found good points in even the greatest sinners. Perhaps I was too harsh. In same way you found goodness in your fellow Jews, may Hashem repay you in kind and bless you, your children, your children's children, and all your generations. Still, you would agree that there is no greater benefit to these people than being mekarev them to the Torah, right?
DeleteAll this is very nice, but a deliberate obfuscation.
DeleteThe problem is not that there was an Act Of God, leading to Cheshbon HaNefesh, to see what sin is rampant in the community, and Ahavas Yisrael is lacking.
This was an Act of Negligence, which should lead to Cheshbon HaNefesh, to see what could prevent a similar thing happening in the future. And what should be found is a lack of Emunas Yisrael - the belief that that the secular Israeli government could possibly have actual welfare of actual Jews in mind when they make rules, and not everything they say is automatically to be mocked and ignored.
So yes, I suppose, in a roundabout way, more Ahavas Yisrael is needed -more ahava of the secular Israeli who is simply following engineering guidelines. More kiruv is needed - kiruv of Chareidim into Israeli society and into the modern world. Shkoyach.
Happygo, yes, I agree there is nothing wrong, and everything right, with bringing them nearer to Torah. We can all use a dollop of goodness!
DeleteYosef R, what could be greater Ahavas Yisrael than bringing the secular Israeli closer to the Torah? And what could be greater Emunas Yisrael than having emunah that his heart can be brought closer to the Torah?
DeleteOn the other hand, what could be further from Emunas Yisrael than accusing an entire segment of klal Yisrael- and a majority of the observant ones- of not caring about safety?
You claim I am obfuscating. What could be greater obfuscation, a greater falsehood, a greater insanity, than accusing Rabbi Dessler Zt"l of contributing to this tragedy? What could be greater libel and Sinaas Yisrael than accusing countless chareidi rabbis who had nothing to do with this, of bloodshed? What could be a greater obfuscation than denying the purpose of this blog, that consistently attacks an entire segment of klal Yisrael? Do you realize what this reveals about you? Repent, divorce yourself from this hatred in your heart.
Finally, your last line is wrong, and reveals the way in which secularism has twisted your priorities. Being mekarev the secular Israeli to the Torah is INFNITELY more important than being mekarev the chareidi to the "wonderful" modern world. It's not even close.
Except "greatest of sinners" is way off here. The majority of Israeli Jews keep the laws of taharat hamishpacha. About half are fully shomer shabbat. Lots of the others keep Shabbat and kashrut to one extent or another. Is it perfect? Of course not. But you need to stop thinking of non-dati Israel as being some sinful disaster. It isn't.
DeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteHappy, sure, it would be wonderful to mekarev chilonim to observe the Torah. But THAT IS NOT THE LESSON TO BE LEARNED HERE. That is a generic thing that is being slapped on to the situation.
DeleteYou want to limit the generalizations? Fine, like we do for every group that has troublemakers (like not-all-Arabs-are-terrorists, not-all-blacks-are-criminals, not-all-Russians-are-Communists, not-all-Asian-moms-are-overachievers) Not All Chareidim Are Doing Things Wrong. It is a few in the leadership, loud and powerful, who rouse the rabble and declare that Anything The Government Says Is Treif, and Anytime There Are Rules Made It Is Clearly An Attack On Torah.
Learning THIS lesson, that the government cares for its people (even if it is for selfish reasons like not wanting to have people die on its watch so that they look bad, not that every subpopulation is their favorite), is the true lesson that should be learned from this.
In addition to wanting everyone to keep the Torah. In addition to wanting everyone to keep Shabbos. In addition to having a Godly society. Do you truly disagree with my statement? Is learning to work with the government not a lesson worth learning?
We can song and dance about how the situation developed, and like all sociological phenomena, there are never going to be solid answers, and certainly not answers that everyone accepts or agrees to. Is there an ideological input here like that from R' Eliyahu Dessler? Is it a societal memory from when they were in the shtetl? Is there a current subconscious recoil against looking weak or giving up power? It's not my place to say - it's probably all of these things and more, in some measure.
DeleteBUT welcome to the modern world - and I do not mean the modern world of pritzus and hedonism, I mean that the Chareidim in question live in a Jewish State, and they also are not powerless, and science and engineering are quite advanced - and it is time to accept that the government is not Always Out To Get Us.
(You want to be morally relative, and say that the Chilonim in the government need to respect religion in general and Chareidim in particular? Sure, fine, no arguments. I am not up on all of the deals that have been made - there are those who will point out that many deals have been made in favor of religious society and many concessions have been made already.
I fear that what happens in all politics would happen here: even a religious government, if they try to say something that will be perceived as negative toward Chareidim, even if it is important or beneficial to the country as a whole, then that person will be vilified and his observance called into question.)
Yosef R, I agree the government is not always out to get chareidim. But I don't think that's the most practical (worldly) lesson to learn from this tragedy. After all, the vast majority of chareidim aren't against basic safety protocols, as far as I can tell, from my friends and relatives in Israeli chareidi society, and from my yeshiva years there (I agree the owners and organizers of Meron probably have blood on their hands.)
DeleteRather, the most practical lesson is to avoid large crowds in tight spaces, regardless of whether the government approves it or not. Many disasters of this type have already happened in many countries, even under strict government watch. There's no guarantee that something can't go wrong. Personally, knowing how common these type of incidents are, I never would have gone to Meron, or anything like it, even before this disaster.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_human_stampedes_and_crushes
OK, happy, so we have common ground: you agree that the organizers are partially responsible. I also have little interest in going to places that are super crowded - I follow Yogi Berra, who composed the self-contradictory description "Nobody goes anymore because it's too crowded." But I certainly do know people who davka WILL go to such events, either because of FOMO, or because it's such a chavaya, or they get a high from the energy of all of the yidden singing together.
DeleteRegardless, the publicly spoken Lesson To Learn Here is not going to be "And so we learn don't go to Meron" - that is what the mothers of the wannabe participants will say next year. That is not what the leadership should say. Rather, what can be done on a communal level? We should learn to be more compliant with safety regulations. Azoi.
(So yesterday a building collapsed in Florida, tragically killing 4 as of current count, with 159 missing. One of the reports included a comment that someone said that there was a structural problem already a year ago! I am curious to see what other parallels there might be - what were the specifics of this advance warning, who knew it, who dismissed it and why, and will this all come out in an investigation...)
As someone not familiar with who is the intended target of that phrase, "May Hashem avenge their blood", how is anybody supposed to know who the target is? We just know that all these people died, their was negligence involved, and not for the first time, and someone is comparing this tragedy to first degree murder. The phrase is usually reserved for Nazis and hamas murderers, not fellow Jews.
ReplyDeleteI knew one of the victims personally. Shragi Gestetner was the son of a friend of mine, and we would talk when he visited Montreal. Yes, there is a huge amount of butt-covering and blae passing, and it could have been prevented years ago. But it isn't intentional murder.
In some ways it's worse than intentional murder. At least intentional murders are done for a reason. Here, it was pure apathy towards human life. The people in charge cared more about their personal power and/or wealth than about the potential for the loss of human life. They cared more about a shekel than a human life, never mind 40+ human lives.
DeleteSometimes the sin involved is corruption, greed,laziness, or being too relaxed about safeguarding the lives of others.
ReplyDeleteI thought you wait a year to erect a matzeva
ReplyDeleteIn Eretz Yisrael it's often after the shloshim. It can even be done immediately after shiva. When I was living in Canada and my gandmother was niftara my Aunt came in from Aretz for the funeral. Before she left after the shiva, there was a hakomat matzeiva so that she could be present.
Delete" (I would presume that the families are well aware that the entire event was an accident waiting to happen, nothing to do with the police.)"
ReplyDeleteYou mean the police who likely created the blockage at the foot of the stairs without which nobody died? Of course it wasn't their fault. After all they wear a uniform. They are part of the state. And they are therefore above the Law. They are the Law to simpletons who follow the State's Gedolim without engaging their own brain.
This is exactly like Hillsborough. It is exactly like the firefighters at Grenfell Tower who told residents in the top floors to stay put in their flats until an hour after the fire started? It is exactly like the medical Gedolim who told their victims that Covid wasn't to airborne, that there was no point limiting air travel, not to wear masks and to attend major sporting events.
Blind servile obedience to the dictates of a state with its own agenda is not a survival trait.
I welcome this investigation and I am sure many many agents of the to state have as much to fear as Aryeh Deri. None will go to prison, because the state protects its own. But at least there will be some accountability for a prima facie shocking, lethal display of professional negligence
Yeah. Of course there was no way the Grenfell commission would ever, in a million years, point to what the actual problem was.
DeleteInteresting that the same person who thinks the worst about Israel when it comes to the poor persecuted Arabs also believes in crazy conspiracy theories here. Not surprising, of course- Israel- and Jew-haters don't have to be logical, but they tend to be consistent- but interesting.
Sorry, I forgot the racial sealion from Jerusalem was bound to pop up whenever brown or black people burn to death elsewhere in the world. Let's leave aside the convoluted chain of responsibility for who installed panelling known to burn like a candle, and focus on the state's response to a fire caused by an electrical appliance.
DeleteAccording to section 2.11 of the Phase 1 report, which you can deign to read here https://assets.grenfelltowerinquiry.org.uk/GTI%20-%20Phase%201%20report%20Executive%20Summary.pdf at 01:09, the fire started spreading up the cladding and the contain to one flat strategy had failed. That is when the stay put plan should have been abandoned.
For the next 86 minutes, the London Fire Brigade control room advised residents calling from their burning flats to stay and be rescued.
The able bodied goats trusted the evidence of their own eyes, ignored the state's fire-fighting Gedolim, and lived.
The sheep, the disabled, and the elderly, burned.
Did the fire brigade conspire to kill black and brown people? Absolutely not. And that's a significant distinction to the living. I'm not sure intent matters any more to the dead.
I didn't say anything about black and brown, nor did I intend it. Your Freudian slip is showing.
DeleteYou didn't need to. Your bizarre defence of chanting about murder and burning down villages on the ground of scientific free speech and the claim that it was all a Shabak conspiracy anyway speaks to your character.
DeleteYou will never deign to examine facts which might hurt your feelings about race.
My claim? Boogie Yaalon got on the news and all but admitted the wedding photo was a setup.
DeleteI do believe in unlimited free speech. Sue me. Of course I think that there are things people *shouldn't* say, like supporting murder, but if people don't have the freedom to do distasteful and ugly things, then that freedom is meaningless.
But sure, twist my words all out of their actual meaning if it makes you feel good. And I imagine you sympathize with the fact that it seems police in your native land spend more time persecuting people who say un-PC things about gays on Twitter than stopping Muslim rape gangs and bombers. Live under a regime like that, you start having to rationalize to stay sane.
Appointing a "Commission" is hardly an "Important Accomplishment". Only someone from the left, which has always been about words and empty gestures, would see meaning in such meaningless theatre. Go see what the Neeman commission accomplished about the draft, or the Kedmi Commission on the Yemenite children. "Important Accomplishment". Good Grief.
ReplyDeleteIf it's meaningless, then the charedi MKs wouldn't have fought so strongly against it.
DeleteG-d knows we don't have empty gestures on the right part of the political spectrum. And words are known to never accomplish anything. You would have to be a degenerate leftist to think that symbolic stances are meaningful in any way, which is why we are never disturbed by them.
DeleteThey opposed it for the same reason you would oppose the idea of a Commission examining the construction of your museum - not because you have anything to hide, but because it would be time consuming and ultimately pointless, like every other Commission Israel has ever commissioned.
DeleteYeah I'm sure they opposed it just as much as they would oppose a commission about what is the right length for toothbrushes or whatever. Nooothing to do with what the commission could find out or the conclusions it could draw.
DeleteNo one's been killed at R' Slifkin's museum. The only people inconvenienced here would be, well, the people involved.
DeleteIrrelevant non-sequiter, Nachum, and you know it. Slifkin claimed if it was meaningless then no one would have opposed it. That's nonsense, the exact opposite is true. People oppose such political grandstanding precisely because it is meaningless. Or are you going to sit there and tell us the countless Commissions Israel has wasted its time on over the years ever produced fruit?
DeleteLet's be honest, among ourselves. Slifkin doesn't care about Charedim, and frankly, Nachum, neither you do. His cries about "revenge" ring hollow and insincere and are just this shy of disgusting. The Charedim whose family members died (I speak here of the majority) never heard of Slifkin, but if they did, they wouldn't even talk to him. This guy is oh-so interested in "revenge"? לא מדובשך ולא מעוקצך . Don't politicize their deaths to support your hatred.
@A. Schreiber
DeleteWell said. As I've already pointed out, the MK that spoke the loudest about establishing a commission and as far as I am aware the only one to actually try to make it a prerequisite for joining the government is.... Avigdor Lieberman.
I think it proves your point.
If the charedi parties were purely libertarian, I might, just might, believe you. But they're of course all in favor of more and more government action if it benefits them. So boo-frickety-hoo if it comes back to bite them.
DeleteBy they way- although this is one heck of a "by the way"- one of the dead was one of my relatives. So don't assume what I do and don't care about.
"Consistency" never was, and never will be, something to admire in politics. The same parties happy to regulate X become privacy hawks when it comes to Y. I need not quote you Emerson or Whitman on the point, I trust. One can always come up with a distinguishing factor, but its not necessary. Each issue turns on its own facts, "consistency" is irrelevant. Political commentators, usually but not always on the right, waste their time whining about it.
DeleteThe bottom line is why the truth about the disaster is not reveal yet, who did not want a full investigation and why. There are responsible, they have to be held accountable not for the sake of vengeance but for avoiding futures disasters so the organizers will fear.
ReplyDeleteAnd as Abraham Lincoln said it: "You may deceive all the people part of the time, and part of the people all the time, but not all the people all the time".
I am referring to the chareidim political leadership.
Am I the only one actually SHOCKED by the violence of these inscriptions?
ReplyDeleteWhoever is found guilty - and I hope they will be found and severely punished - did not murder these people in cold blood.
The ones who crushed them are not even guilty, as ochlogists unanimously say.
The Police, even if found negligent, was actually trying to save lives in very difficult conditions, in the middle of a clearly hostile crowd.
The organizers have blood on their hands, granted. But it's because of their greed and stupidity, not because they planned murder.
Hy''d is something we use for people who were killed 'al kiddush Hashem, martyrs. It's not the case over here.
It's like those who call everyone 'nazis'. The race to ever more flamboyant rhetorics is dangerous.
I also found it strange to wish for revenge under the circumstances.
DeleteI think the most objective comment here, though coming from my biased perspective lolhttp://www.rationalistjudaism.com/logout?d=https://www.blogger.com/logout-redirect.g?blogID%3D6906205856510467947%26postID%3D2095886584430062535
DeleteAs R. Slifkin points out, the גואל הדם of which the תורה writes is avenging a purely accidental murder. The deaths at מירון qualify for at least this much.
DeleteTwo of their sons were killed. I think we can give them this.
DeleteThey wrote הי''ד which puts any revenge in the hands of God to exact. So your concerns are unfounded.
DeleteNobody is your enemy here to ask for revenge or to put it in the hands of G-d. It's strange thinking to me.
DeleteThe purely accidental murder in the case of the גואל הדם avenging is when there is a DIRECT connection - the gemara in makkkos itself makes a clear (and what should be obvious) distinction between "Kocho" and "Koach Kocho" - this distinction is obvious and is found in all areas of torah (besides being common sense). No kal vachomer can be made to the Meron accident and an accidental, DIRECT killing. Intent and direct causality are necessary components for assigning credit and blame - otherwise we should be honoring Adolf Hitler at the Lakewood dinner for his role in bringing torah to America
DeleteWhat happened at Meron was like building a balcony and not putting a maakeh.
DeleteThe purely accidental murder in the case of the גואל הדם avenging is when there is a DIRECT connection
DeleteNot relevant. The parents aren't looking for a legal remedy with that inscription. They are asking for the people who were criminally negligent to get what they deserve.
It is debatable whether the Meron incident was similar to building a balcony or not (though I am inclined to agree with you that the comparison is more apt than the comparison to goel ha'dam). Just realize, though, that your post did not compare meron to maakeh - it compared it to goel ha'dam which is actually a better comparison to the actions of the police that were present at the scene. Multiple lessons can be learned from the tragedy, but in my humble opinion, it's also a tragedy that people will likely only learn the lesson they've already learned countless of times and somehow manage to come away with the same lesson (that chareidim are BAD BAD BAD) regardless of whether there was a stampede in Meron or whether the price of cottage cheese went up. In what was surely the most stunning coincidence of all time, the awakening that led to such a refreshing outlook on life happened right around the same time as this author's books were banned.
DeleteWhy can the 'revenge' be based upon the findings of a formal inquiry? Police, ploticians included?
ReplyDeleteIf the negligence of 99 people severely crush the victims, and then the 100th person - even if he is a uniformed, state sanctioned Gadol in public order and a shiny badge - crushes the victim a little more - and then the victim dies, the 99 are not liable and the policeman, the proximate cause of death, is liable.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.sefaria.org/Bava_Kamma.10b?lang=bi
For those who don't see who rules the world, the disasters/accidents happen because of negligence, human error, etc. Those who do know who rules the world know there is intrinsic meaning to everything.
ReplyDeleteAnd why not both? Peshi'a is a halachik concept. One who is negligent is halachikally liable for damages.
DeleteThose who do know the rules acknowledge that ein somchin al hanes.
The events in Meron have been happening for about a century already without incidents. It can't be miracles that repeating every year.
Delete" It can't be miracles that repeating every year."
DeleteJournalist reporting from Meron, hours before the disaster: "It's a miracle no one has been hurt"
OK, I'll give you a bit on that. But then I will counter with wear-and-tear making the structure weaker every year, how more and more and MORE people come every year, raising the stress and strain on the structure (especially in the post-Covid rush to do things we haven't been able to do), and a recent report saying that the structure is unsound. The last one is important because while one might be able to say that there is a chazaka that the structure will hold because after all, it held every year, now with a report, we have a new metzi'us.
DeleteHypothesis:
DeleteCovid=> increased hygiene theatre barriers from police => crush went supercritical.
Fully consistent with Ephraim's observations.
Here are your state approved -UN approved - medical Gedolim. Highly respected academics. Quoted and revered by their upper middle class Chassidim around the world. Dead wrong, with deadly consequences
ReplyDeletehttps://mobile.twitter.com/WHO/status/1243972193169616898
Lazar since you seem to have a direct line to God, tell us please what he told you the intrinsic meaning is here. And does it include being careful in preserving our our own lives using the physical methods under our control?
ReplyDeleteA Satmer chiossid asked me recently what I thing is Miron. I told him: 'Irresponsibility, negligence, ignorance, greed, stupidity is what led to it. We both were there and we know it's dangerous. Not korbon lahashem, not kdoishim that atoned for our sins, not a mystery. Now, we can utilize it to be mischazek belimud hatorah, znius or whatever, but the primary lesson is to make the place safe.' He listened, but he had asked first.
ReplyDelete1. Did Yaffa Deri really speak?
ReplyDeleteDid she speak well?
Maybe we should make her an MK next time around?
2. Were any/many family members come?
3. Why make a commission? Charedim and or the hekdeshim that own the area can head it all off, by demolishing the complex (less 4-6 feet around the actual kevarim) and hiring and paying in advance a respectable construction company to build an appropriate stadium like structure.
HYD stands for Hashem Yimche Dimah
ReplyDeleteIn 2016, New Zealand appointed a commission to come to Israel and discuss the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. After 2 years of interviews, meetings, conferences, research, etc and over 60 million dollars spent, they recommended a reduction in violence and that both sides do what they can to foster peace. This commission on the Meron tragedy will accomplish the exact same amount whether it's created or not
ReplyDeleteEh, I'm not so sure. A political solution to people's behavior is one thing. A l'maaseh investigation into What Happened, Why, and Who Knew What When is different.
DeleteThose who choose to learn from it will, and yes, some people will do as you describe, sweep it under the rug, and say "do what you can."
Even for the rationalist this seems a bit much. To have so many similar tragedies within such a small time frame is hard to just shrug off as negligence that all of a sudden just happened
ReplyDeleteOn the other hand, the person selected to head the Commission is former Chief Justice Naor, who was part of the Court (along with current Chief Justice Hayut, who selected her!) which actually set up the hekdeshim council in the first place.
ReplyDeleteWill such a commission actually investigate all the truth, will it perhaps excessively foist all of the blame (even the responsiblity of the government and courts who supported the status quo for so long) on the Haredi askanim (as they fear), or might it even cover everything up and just "blame the shin gimmel" of the engineers at the site, to protect themselves?