UPDATE: This post was ill-advised and widely misunderstood. But I will say this: While
Lufthana acted wrongly, it is absolutely true that there is a serious,
widespread and systemic problem with how many charedi Jews, particularly
chassidim, behave on airlines. Anyone who denies this has either not
flown much with such groups or is being dishonest. Yet when anyone -
even other frum Jews - mentions this, there are cries of "lashon hara!"
and accusations of "antisemitism." If we don't address our own problems, then we shouldn't be surprised if others address them in ways that we don't like.
There is outrage among many frum Jews about an incident involving Lufthansa. Around 150 charedim who flew to Germany from JFK were denied permission to board a connecting flight to Hungary, where they wished the visit the grave of a chassidic rebbe. The Lufthansa official explained that since a number of them had refused to wear masks on the flight from JFK, none of them would be allowed to board the next flight (presumably due to the difficulty of identifying which of them exactly would cause problems).
This resulted in outrage. How dare Lufthansa punish all the Jews on the flight for the actions of what one frum person claims was just one or two passengers? Such collective punishment, it is argued, is clearly antisemitism.
I would first like to observe that it is extremely unreasonable to believe that it was only "one or two" passengers who did not wear masks. As pointed out in a past post, When Chassidim Fly, anyone who flies regularly on El Al flights from JFK knows full well that charedim, and especially chassidim, are frequently non-compliant with airline instructions, especially regarding Covid restrictions. In fact, in the comments on the Vos Iz Neias story, several people insist that one should not obey the rules about masks! In a group of 150 chassidim, there were presumably a considerable number that were not masking.
Still, presumably there were also many chassidim who were compliant. Is it legitimate for them to be punished for those who were not compliant? Is such collective punishment not antisemitic?
I'm not going to answer this question directly. Instead, I would encourage people to consider a similar situation.
Not all Palestinians are terrorists or even support terror. Nevertheless, all Palestinians frequently pay the price for the significant number of Palestinians that do engage in terror. Whether it's lockdowns or other legal restrictions, there are measures that are taken against the collective due to the impossibility of targeting only those that are causing problems.
Is this right or wrong? My point here is not to take a position either way. But I am darn sure that every single frum person who is shouting "outrageous antisemitism!" at Lufthansa for their collective treatment of the chassidim is perfectly fine with such collective treatment of Palestinians. They would undoubtedly say that it's par for the course. When there is a significant number of people who cause problems, and there is no way to single out those people, then the larger community which houses and produces them must pay the price in order to prevent those problems from occurring again.
Well, seeing as that is what they would say with regard to Palestinians, why should Jews be any different? As they say in Britain, what's sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
(If you'd like to subscribe to this blog via email, use the form on the right of the page, or send me an email and I will add you.)
"Palestinians" make for a bad comparison, because they are a citizenship (or lack thereof) and it's much more accepted to discriminate based on citizenship as opposed to religion.
ReplyDeleteHowever, a good comparison is to Israeli airport security, which does profiling based on many factors, among them ethnicity and religion, and few Israeli Jews have ever complained about it (and I'm not).
I don't think Lufthansa should have denied boarding to all the Haredim and should have instead made an effort to identify the culprits by seat number. However, I also think it's disingenuous to suggest they were directly discriminating against them because they were Jewish. Rather, it was against a tour group on a specific flight, heading to particular destination, of which a signifiant number had already flouted the rules (and presumably the tour organisers and fellow travellers were indulgent of this) who wished to again use the airline's services after repeatedly flouting its rules.
ReplyDeleteI doubt that Jews on this flight catching other connecting flights were similarly affected.
The analogy to collective punishment is flawed because of the reason you yourself cite: "the impossibility of targeting only those that are causing problems", which is not the case here. That said, I'm sure this is not always the case and there are various instances of law-abiding Palestinians experiencing poor treatment. After all, the purpose of the roll-out of the facial-recognition cameras in the West Bank is to identify individuals; yet they are all subject to certain restrictions.
Collective punishment is almost never justified. The exception Israel (understandably) makes is for terrorism, where lives are at stake.
ReplyDeleteCovid doesn't currently constitute the same kind of threat as terrorism, so it's very hard to justify collective punishment. That and the fact that the flight attendants could probably have singled out at least a large percentage of the transgressors based on their seat numbers etc.
I normally agree with and appreciate your logical and thoughtful posts. Unfortunately, that excludes this one. A few comments:
ReplyDelete1) It is somewhat libelous to assume that many or most people weren't wearing masks. I haven't seen LH claiming that, so it is surprising that you are assuming that it is the case. (LH is also different to LY since there is a perception that the rules are more flexible on LY.)
2) It would have been perfectly reasonable for FA's on the flight to write down the seat numbers of those flouting the rules.
3) There were multiple different groups involved. It would be more understandable for members of one PNR to be banned, but less understandable when it's unrelated people, connected only by virtue of their religion.
4) Palestinian terror is a matter of life and death since it is impossible to keep track of individuals without collective restrictions. Passengers on a flight, by contrast, are easy to keep track of. Any individual on the second leg not appropriately masked could have easily been warned that he or she would be met by law enforcement in BUD.
Dan's Deals has a video of the supervisor exploit saying she is banning all the Jews due to the actions of a few.
ReplyDeleteThis is the equivalent of banning all Arabs from flying and is racist and stereotyping.
It wasn't The Jews. It was the Chassidic group.
Delete1.The chassidim weren't one group. Some had booked together, some had not. LH did not make any attempt to distinguish. The only thing the banned travellers had in common was their Jewish appearance, and the LH representative explicitly said as such, acknowledging that they didn't care who was actually responsible.
Delete2. Information from travellers on the flight indicates there had been no noticeable issue of chassidim failing to mask any more than other groups nor any attempt by staff to address the issue.
3. There is no comparison to the Palestinian issue. As you say, 'collective punishment' there is due to the impossibility of only restricting potential terrorists. That is not remotely true of the situation on the plane where identifing individual culprits is simple.
4. You do not have sufficient facts at your disposal. Commenting is therefore ridiculous.
Rabbi Slifkin,
DeleteDid you edit out the Dans Deals link from my post? (I may have simply forgotten to add it)
https://www.dansdeals.com/points-travel/airlines/airline-news/outrageous-german-airline-bans-jews-flying-lufthansa-supervisor-jewish-people-mess-made-problems-everyone-pay-couple/
Either way, if you read the article and watch the video, you will see the situation is far worse than what you say.
An important part of being rationalist is admitting error. I think you are wrong here. Innocent people were inconvenienced simply because of their appearance.
R' Slifkin,
DeleteIf you were going to publish an article on this subject, you could have at least had the decency to do some basic research.
Leaving aside the bizarre comparison that is the subject of this post, your comment that "it was the Chassidic group." is plainly false. A few minutes on google would have turned this up for you. You can literally see some clearly non-Chassdic passengers interviewed on television who were not allowed on the flight.
As many other have already pointed out, you should read the Dansdeals write up on the story. He actually took the time out to make a good-faith effort to determine what had actually transpired.
Previous comment from me, Ash
ReplyDeleteI also usually agree with your POV, but not in this case. The flight attendants could have identified those not wearing masks. And the post I saw about this (on Dan's Deals) there was a photo from inside the plane which clearly showed passengers who were not visibly Jewish not wearing masks properly. Yet, by all accounts, only those who were visibly Jewish were denied boarding on the connecting flight. Moreover, many of those denied boarding were not part of the tour groups and had booked flights independently. Lastly, I would add that this action being taken by the German airline- in Germany- is a particularly bad look.
ReplyDeleteI would highly recommend reading the Dan's Deals post on this. By the accounts given there the situation sounds horrific and yes anti-semitic. Maybe there was lax adherence to the rules (it remains to be seen how true that was; the accounts given on the post sound like it wasn't more than a few people), but as can be seen on photos in the blog post, it was not just the (visibly) jewish passengers that were not fully compliant. But it was *only* and *all* (recognisably) jewish passengers punished.
ReplyDeleteHard disagree. The problem with identifying terrorists is that you can't look inside somebody's heart. Whereas it's very easy to identify the people who aren't wearing masks: they're not wearing masks.
ReplyDeleteYou've mentioned that you have a blind spot for recognizing danger from animals, you also seem to have a big blind spot when it comes to analyzing "charedim".
ReplyDeleteFor some reason when it comes to "Charedim", you lose all sense of nuance and you are no longer capable of recognizing different shades of grey.
Racism stinks, but sometimes it's a necessary evil. For you to compare protecting ourselves from potential terrorists because of the risk of being killed to this instance of not wearing a mask on the plane is expected from someone of lesser intelligence than you.
And if you took the time to actually research the story, as you would for a non charidi story, you would have seen that there were clear anti-Semitic and deeply disturbing actions taken by the airline staff
This
DeleteSeveral comments on the various frum websites say to boycott Lufthansa or anything else German - ie collective punishment! The very think they are protesting against!
ReplyDeleteYes and no. Lufthansa is guilty as a a single entity. This is like suing a (whole) city for what its police did. That's appropriate. But anything German? Someone's, or lots of people are, getting excited.
DeleteI can't say what happened here, but I can say that I still have a bad taste from an experience several years ago. I was flying from NY to Tel Aviv with a connection in Paris. The NY flight was delayed due to ice on the wings and that caused us to miss our connecting flight to TA. That night was Purim (outside of J'm) and the prospect of missing the megillah reading caused many passengers distress and they took it out on the blameless airline agents. Simple logic, humility, and acceptance of an act of G-d would demand good manners and decorum but that was not to be! One Hassid in particular took it upon himself to initiate loud and bousterous complaints. He invoked full victim mode while strangely complaining about Jewish blood flowing like water. I was mortified and embarrased and opposed his antics and tried to joke with the agents . Unfortunately, none of the Haredi passengers joined me in attempting to quell this guy's antics. They rather expressed support for his position. Oy veh!
ReplyDeleteAnyway, I'm not inclined to give these travellin' Hasidim the benefit of the doubt. Sorry.
Wow!
DeleteYou can get a job in Lufthansa. One Chassid did something wrong, others refused to join you in making fun of him, and suddenly no Chassidim deserve the benefit of the doubt.
Besides that the Torah tells us to give our nation - jews - the benefit of the doubt, your position is really quite extremist.
@YW & ZD:
DeleteYW writes that he “tried to joke with the agents.” ZD paraphrases that as “making fun of 'him'” (e.i., “One Chassid”). Is that correct? Was the complaining Chassid the butt of the jokes. Or were they just general jokes trying to ease the tension and aimed at no one? Or aimed at him with a gracious smile to get him too to ease up?
This is a horrible take.
ReplyDelete1) Obviously, it's ridiculous to compare a case of life and death to a case of wearing masks. The consequences are just completely different.
2) Obviously, it's ridiculous to compare a case where it's not clear who the potential perps are compared to a case where it should have been possible to tell who did the act.
3) There's a fundamental difference between denying a service that has already been paid for and denying a service that hasn't been paid for.
4) As per the Dan's Deals post, they also punished Jews that weren't part of that group or even on that flight.
From Dan's Deals:
ReplyDelete"David told me that about halfway through the flight, a pilot made an announcement that the flight attendants were frustrated with people blocking the galleys in prayer, and for having to repeat themselves about needing to wear a mask. He warned that people not obeying orders would have a problem with their connecting flight."
There's also a clip of a hassid calling a police officer a Nazi.
Maybe Lufthansa didn't react in the best way, but the continued disgusting behavior of many hassidim when flying is appalling. (Trying to goad a German police officer by calling him Nazi? How stupid can you be?!) After dealing with badly behaved chassidic passengers every day, who can blame them?
From Dan's Deals:
ReplyDelete"David told me that about halfway through the flight, a pilot made an announcement that the flight attendants were frustrated with people blocking the galleys in prayer, and for having to repeat themselves about needing to wear a mask. He warned that people not obeying orders would have a problem with their connecting flight."
There's also a clip of a hassid calling a police officer a Nazi.
Maybe Lufthansa didn't react in the best way, but the continued disgusting behavior of many hassidim when flying is appalling. (Trying to goad a German police officer by calling him Nazi? How stupid can you be?!) After dealing with badly behaved chassidic passengers every day, who can blame them
I have learned not to trust DNS's characterizations of anything. I would only note how interesting it is that he is happy to believe that orthodox Jews are what he calls "racist", but cannot bring himself to believe that Germans would discriminate against Jews. I would say "amazing", but it is actually not; unfortunately, there's no shortage of Jews with such warped thinking.
ReplyDeleteGershon Pickles
Natan has turned this blog into a hatefest against his fellow Jews.
DeleteHow are they supposed to tell who's Chareidi? A black hat, a black yarmulka? You'll have modern Orthodox Jews not being allowed to board. What about NonJews and NonOrthodox Jews who you see in abundant number ignoring the mask rules of places like stores? When you want constant revenge you've set yourself up for failure at revenge. The best revenge is winning over opposition and increasing support. YA
ReplyDeleteComparing people who refuse to wear masks on planes with terrorists is as outrageous as it is unpersuasive. Everyone who knows how to read data understands that masks are little more than a virtue signaling mechanism that does little to nothing to prevent the spread of a virus that is no worse than the flu. In the US masks are no longer required on planes or nearly any other setting at this point.
ReplyDeleteTerrorists, on the other hand, murder people in cold blood.
A better analogy would be if there were some black people on a flight who were being rowdy. Would the airline prevente all black people on the flight from making their connection simply due to the color of their skin? Of course not! Even if the majority of black people were causing problems this would not serve as any sort of justification. It would trigger a massive outrage and the airline would be in full damage control mode.
I reject your comparison to the palestinians. In a situation where it would be possible to single out those who do not follow the regulations, there ought not be collective punishment. In the case of the airline, there is a system whereby the officials of the flight can determine who exactly is guilty. There is absolutely no reason to punish those who properly wear the masks.
ReplyDeleteThank you for combating reflexive anger with rationality. I wholeheartedly agree with your take.
ReplyDeleteMy 2 year old is more intelligent than you
ReplyDeleteThis has to be the dumbest blog post since the internet was formed
ReplyDeleteWhile Lufthana acted wrongly, it is absolutely true that there is a serious, widespread and systemic problem with how many charedi Jews, particularly chassidim, behave on airlines. Anyone who denies this has either not flown much with such groups or is being dishonest.
ReplyDeleteA neighbor of mine posted the following account of what transpired during a plane flight:
"I just flew to and from Israel... and I have never been more mortified to be Orthodox. The plane was trashed. The bathrooms wrecked. A flight attendant remarked that this route is always left this way, while after 15 hours to Japan, the plane is left spotless. Men crowded the aisles and blocked the passageways, forming a minyan even while being explicitly told that they could not do so A- because the seat belt sign was on and B- because of the pandemic. While attendants were buckled in because of turbulence, stopped food service because of turbulence, men were up and putting on tefillin even while flight attendants and the captain himself begged them to sit down and buckle up. They could not have cared less. It was as if they were deaf or above the rules or both.
To describe myself as shocked is an understatement. It got to the point that I asked them who they were even praying to, who would possibly listen to their tefilot when they were causing us such humiliation and chillul Hashem. I don't know who to turn to to speak about this and I do not want to trash an entire community. But this was so so bad that if I myself was feeling such anger and animosity and close to posting videos I can't think that someone actually doing this who is not Orthodox is far off. In all seriousness, rabbis and Leadership needs to address this. If anyone has ideas as to who to turn to, please let me know."
That story is really problematic, from another standpoint.
DeleteThe Captains turn on the buckle seatbelt because of turbulence, and a large amount of passengers ignore it. Day in and day out, such flights occur, with people ignoring the safety rules.
Yet, we have never ever heard of a person getting injured for wearing Tefillin on a flight.
Why do Captains annoy people with unnecessary rules and instructions? Why do they force people into their seats when there is no benefit from it? The rules are the problem, no less than those who flout them.
And give me a break about the trash. 15-hour flights to Japan have zero children, whereas five hours from Tel Aviv to London can have upwards of 50 children. That is the difference. Not the religion of the travelers.
This is a pretty good backpedal.
DeleteFrom the actual article you linked to and from the video in it you see the Jews were banned as Jews as the German airline woman says. You would have banned too. YA
ReplyDeleteThe Elder of Ziyon blog presents it as being disgustingly discriminatory. :
ReplyDeleteDan notes that first class passengers on the initial flight were not rebuked for not wearing masks, and indeed one of the first class flight attendants did not wear one either.
The Frankfurt airport does not require masks.
Lufthansa is saying they did nothing wrong.
This is the definition of stereotyping and bigotry.
https://elderofziyon.blogspot.com/2022/05/lufthansa-kicks-over-100-religious-jews.html
It's not surprising to me that you fail to appreciate how wrong the airline's actions were since you are often guilty of the same mindset. They saw a few chasidim acting inappropriately and decided to then punish all chasidim from the flight, failing to distinguish between different people and lazily labeling them by a very general tag.
ReplyDeleteReminds me a lot of your approach to chasidim/chareidim. Just look at your other post, "When Chasidim Fly". Your bias and obsession blurs all lines for you and you seem rarely able to think in any nuanced fashion and prefer to just lump 'em all together with your "brilliant" posts.
I think there's another factor at work here, one that is in the back of most Jews' minds but which they don't like to think about: Non-Jews, even those with minimal to no animus towards Jews, do indeed *notice* Jews and are indeed able to *recognize* Jews, even those with no special clothing or the like, and certainly notice and recognize Jews dressed in such a fashion as to be identifiable. Jews *really* don't like to be reminded of these facts, and often prefer to think that they are "passing" in one way or another, and for very understandable reasons...but they don't. I can provide a bunch of examples of each of these things- noticing Jews, identifying Jews, and Jews not wanting either.
ReplyDeleteSo with that said, let's assume (as opposed to the frankly unhinged comments on Dan's post) that the Lufthansa employees don't wish they could ship Jews off on cattle cars. Good. Also recall that we are dealing with people from a country without many Jews, and certainly one in which Jewish "sensitivities" are not that prominent, a place where political correctness is not what it is in the US, and, finally, with people whose ability to express themselves in English is not the best. So what happened?
Well, no special talent was needed for the noticing and identifying: These were very obviously Jews, in a big group. And their behavior was, shall we say, less than exemplary. Put yourself in the shoes of a member of an aircraft crew, harried under the best of circumstances and even more so with all sorts of covid regulations, who now has to deal with a large group of people (and when people stand out, the group seems even larger, and one indistinguishable from the other) who don't speak your language, are doing their own thing, things you've never seen, and show no inclination to follow rules. So you decide that you don't want the next plane to have to deal with it, and tell them- whoever "them" is, you don't really care- that they can't go on. Who? "The Jews." Because that's what they are, and obviously so. Oh, there are other Jews on the flight? Oh, some were following the rules? Why should I care right now? I'm trying my best.
Oh, and Jews: That's what being Jewish *means*. We're all responsible for another. Instead of screaming about blowing up German planes, maybe the responsible Jews could have slipped a quiet word to the others.
Or, you know, maybe we don't *have* to make pilgrimages to graves of Jewish versions of the Pied Piper.
By the way, I can't help but note an irony in that charedim love to talk about the Three Oaths. Well, we know they pretend Oath Three doesn't exist. Oath One they care a lot about. (Until they don't.) Oath Two clearly says that Jews have to adopt a subservient position in exile. For some reason they think, perversely, that this applies only to the Israeli government. In *actual* exile, though, they are free to do what they want and take as much advantage of the gentiles as they want. Like I said, perverse, and telling.
“Or, you know, maybe we don't *have* to make pilgrimages to graves of Jewish versions of the Pied Piper.”
DeleteYes, that is the takeaway of 150 unrelated Jews being denied boarding of a German airline. We should travel less.
Hot takes from the sewer.
Took a course in missing the point, did you? Travel is great for those who like it. Visiting graves is rather un-Jewish, especially for reputed pest-removal miracle workers.
DeletePunishing all Orthodox Jews collectively because they can't identify which ones did it IS antisemitic. If they did this to all black people because a black person did something bad on a plane there'd (justifiably) be outrage. All of a sudden it's ok to point out "systemic problems" a that exist aming a specific group of people though
ReplyDeleteI'm a Chasid and travel frequently I can't tell you how many times I was embarrassed by rude and obnoxious behavior by other chasidim (and litayim - this is a Cheredi thing not Davka Chasidim)
ReplyDeleteTaking of masks during the whole flight with the wise-guy excuse they were "snacking" was standard behavior. they felt smug and smart they came up with a way to outsmart the "system" (and potentially die and kill others...)
its bad enough the Chilul Hashem they did, to later cry Anti-Semitism is beyond comprehension.
The snacking trick is done by many people, non-Jews included, who are tired of following oppressive rules that don't make any sense. Well over half of violent altercations on flights in the US over the past year have been related to the mask mandates. Turns out, people prefer to breathe normally, and don't appreciate being told they can't.
DeleteSo you don’t care how many people you infect or vulnerable people die? You’d rather be comfortable….got it.
DeleteMeh. You're no chussid. Chassidim don't know the word litayim. Nice try though
DeleteThey decided to punish all Jews. If you read the linked article and listen to the video you see that. Further again even if they were to punish only Chareidim you would have many Modern Orthodox punished for bring Chareidi because of dressing Yeshivish, perhaps on their way to Yeshiva even. YA
ReplyDeletehttps://onemileatatime.com/news/lufthansa-apologizes-denying-jews-boarding/ YA
ReplyDelete
ReplyDeletehttps://forward.com/fast-forward/501751/passengers-say-lufthansa-threw-all-visible-jews-off-nyc-budapest-flight-because-some-werent-wearing-masks/?utm_source=Iterable&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=campaign_4236994
"A Lufthansa airline supervisor said on video that it was “the Jewish people who were the mess, who made the problems.”"
"According to Dan’s Deals, an individual named Max Weingarten was able to board the plane to Budapest because he was wearing a black polo shirt and didn’t look like a Hasidic Jew.
Weingarten, who traveled in first class, said that he wasn’t wearing a mask from JFK to Frankfurt, that nobody asked him to wear a mask and the flight attendant wasn’t masked."
YA
אף אתה הקהה את שיניו
ReplyDeleteאילו היית שם לא היתה נגאל.
Why do you insist on assuming the worst about Jews when many many eye witness accounts say that you are wrong? Why do you justify any mistake as long as the ones at the short end of the stick are Chareidim? You assert that you are the one who knows best about the FACTS of the story even though you weren't there and those who were disagree with your take. Time to for some introspection, sir....
The German airline displayed stupid, ignorant Antisemitism and it deserves the sharpest condemnation and derision. They need to know that we are the adults in the room and they made fools of themselves.YA
ReplyDeleteI just find it ironic how the mighty have fallen. You were once a young avreich defending Hashem and his Torah. Now you are defending Nazis. Something to think about.
ReplyDelete"Nazis"???
DeleteOk if not Nazis, stupid ignorant idiots embarrassing themselves and making fools of themselves. This is indicative of some lack of learning from the Holocaust. If no great outrage is felt something is wrong. NonOrthodox won't be spared.
ReplyDelete"Ok if not Nazis, stupid ignorant idiots embarrassing themselves and making fools of themselves. This is indicative of some lack of learning from the Holocaust. If no great outrage is felt something is wrong. NonOrthodox won't be spared."
ReplyDeleteThat was me YA.
I waited for the inevitable response from Lufthansa's CEO before commenting on this misguided, self-hating, justification of anti-Semitic behavior of Germans - by Rabbi Slifkin. I recognize that it is difficult for anyone to recognize our own errors in judgement.
ReplyDeleteynet.co.il/judaism/article/bkviidtu9
So, now that Lufthansa has admitted that this was a case of anti-Semitism and the particularly nasty agent was suspended, would Rabbi Natan Slifkin care to reassess, and perhaps find commonality with the German airline, that, indeed, collective punishment against more than 100 Jews because of two Jews who refuse to wear masks, is unreasonable and wrong? Or does he still think that, no, he can understand the German agent and the machine-gun toting and dog-accompanied Polizei? I guarantee you, Rabbi Slifkin, that plenty of Jews were annoying in the 1930's, too. It doesn't justify collective punishment.
Had Blacks been in place of the Haredim , it would have been the end of Lufthansa. Some Haredim acted wrong, all Haredim got punished. Huh?
ReplyDeleteMany people are not wearing masks even with signs, and are not being stopped but even if not tolerating Antisemitism against any Jews is participating in it. YA
ReplyDeleteDansDeals publishes this story as a means to fighting anti-semitsim. This website publishes it to promote anti-semitism. And if that wasnt shameful enough, when his mistake is pointed out, he says only that it was "widely misunderstood" - as though other people had made the mistake, not him - and doubles down rather than take responsibility. And then the despicable close, "if we don't fix our problems than we shouldn't be surprised it others do it in ways that we dont like." Shameful in every possible way.
ReplyDeleteGP
This article has to be a parody. It is one of the least rational things I have read for a long time. Hilarious Natan!
ReplyDeleteAfter reading the article and the comments, I see to major themes that people seem to be arguing back and forth over:
ReplyDelete1. The Airline in this particular instance acted in an Antisemitic way.
2. Those Jews who defied (defy??) the rules (yes even by standing in aisles donning tefillin when the captain turned on the seatbelt sign) commit(ted) a Chillul Hashem. And relatedly, other Jews had (have) an obligation to rebuke them (or perhaps not, see yesterday’s Daf Yomi - Yevamot 65).
I personally do not see these two positions as mutually exclusive. We are Jews. We need to act like an Ohr LaGoyim. And at the same time we need to stand up to ALL Anti-Semitic behavior.
I was on this flight so I can help you sort out your assumptions. You may be right that sometimes the frum had a more loose attitude towards mask wearing. But on this flight they made it very clear from before we got on that they were very "pro mask" and everybody seemed to get it. In my section which was full of frum/chassidim I saw 3 ppl being admonished and only one was Jewish. Besides your insinuation that perhaps they banned Jews because they can't tell us apart is ludicrous. Firstly, it smells of the worst form of stereotype on so many levels. Secondly, they know every person's name by their boarding pass and could have easily indicated who made the problem and who should be punished. Thirdly, Lufthansa banned ALL Jews for 24 hours from any flight in Frankfurt. They ere turning people away from other gates in the airport for looking Jewish. They also refused someone with a sick child and refused to offer even water to the stranded passengers.
ReplyDeleteProbably worst of all is your comparison to security lock down of Palestinians. I will not justify that with a response it is too embarrassing.
You have a right to an opinion but you are on the wrong side of intelligent reality here.