First of all, while for men this may be amusing or frustrating, for women it can be a source of immense pain, as well as other harmful effects. Do not make the mistake of underestimating how much harm this phenomenon causes. Devaluing a person's existence is one of the most painful things to do to a person. I've had a taste of what it feels like to be erased, and it's something that I wouldn't wish on anyone (well, maybe on some people).
Second, for a number of reasons, it's important to understand both why this phenomenon exists, and what precisely is wrong with it. I will be addressing this in a future post.
And now, for the photos:
1. At Least You Can See Her Chair?
2. These Women All Look Strangely Similar
4. Someone Missed Their Own Wedding
6. Who Can Find A Valorous Woman? Nobody, Apparently.
7. My Two Dads
8. The Midwives' Accessories
9. Happy Homosexual Family
10. Goodbye Shoes
11. Where's Hillary?
12. Those Sure Are Strange-Looking Women
13. Don't Mothers Give Advice To Their Daughters?
As I mentioned, I will soon be publishing posts on both what exactly is wrong with this phenomenon, and also why this phenomenon exists. You can subscribe to this blog via email using the form on the right of the page, or send me an email and I will add you.
(Meanwhile, there are plenty of resources on this topic available at https://www.chochmatnashim.org and at https://www.frumwomenhavefaces.com.)
For a healthy, stable Jewish woman such a phenomenon will not be "a source of immense pain." Immense? I am sorry but you are projecting. Yes, people obviously take different things to heart for their own reasons, but that women in general are subjected to immense pain due to the fact that female faces aren't found in Charedi periodicals is quite frankly absurd.
ReplyDeleteAgain, I am talking about healthy people, so don't throw out proofs about how this one or that one called you up.
No true Scotsman fallacy
DeleteI agree that this is probably projecting. If anything, you’d think women would be upset that they can’t be female rabbis. We need to respect women who make up half of the Jewish population.
DeleteIt’s not the Charedi Jews who disparage women. It’s the Arabs or Muslim countries. For example, if a girl was raped she is hanged on a pole for several days or tossed off a cliff. One women fought for women’s right to teach secular studies. She got a bullet to the head. Women have little rights in the Arab world. In contrast, Israel gave women the right to vote and drive.
If women should feel “immense pain“ it ought to be directed toward the Arab countries. I, too, cry every time I hear about a women being killed unjustly for a rape crime she did not do in a savage country like Iran.
Who is comparing Israel to the Arab world?
DeleteAnd why can you not get offended at both?
Women are treated much worse in other places. I can be (and am) deeply offended at this, but if my even greater horror at what happens to women in, say, Africa doesn't cause me some sort of "personal pain", why would this? Just because the authors are theoretically of my religion?
DeleteYou're right for now but consider the worrying evolution, 50 years ago even yiddishe licht the publication of Jerusalem's kanoyim had no problem with publishing a picture of Satmar Rebetzin and 30 years ago artscroll publication had pictures of pre and postwar women and girls in their biographies, the current situation point to a radicalisation occurring on this topic others like distrust of science and state authority all being deviations from Torah wisdom.
DeleteUm, Michoel, are you aware that Artscroll is STILL printing pictures of women in their biographies (i.e Rebbetzin Kanievsky) and depicting women and girls prominently in their best-selling children's books?
Deletehttps://www.artscroll.com/Categories/YOU.html
So let's be clear: this is not a general trend in the Orthodox publishing world. It is a general trend in the newspaper/magazine and advertising (i.e tomorrow's fish wrapping) world. And even there, women absolutely DOMINATE the editing and writing positions in those very publications!
So please don't tell me Jewish women are being devalued and marginalized in frum society at large and we are facing some kind of social crisis. Feelings aside, the facts show otherwise.
That's right, Leah. RNS - a certified white male - is lecturing you and all other women, and telling YOU what you should and should not be offended by. Because he knows better than you.
DeleteLast week RNS - still a certified white male - told us that blacks with a different opinion than him (conservative ones) "don't count". He said this while accusing OTHER people of racism, incredibly. (And this from a man with a lily-white Board of Directors.) Because he knows better than them.
Two weeks ago RNS - an Englishman who lives in Israel - discoursed on American politics and the President. Because he knows better than us.
It just gets better and better. I sometimes think you should change the blog post to something more reflective of what it really is: "RNS - BECAUSE I KNOW BETTER THAN EVERYONE."
It’s just like the liberals here lecturing us about black lives mattering. We all know they matter but they want to shout it at us nonstop. Why?
DeleteOh c'mon, DF, this is a huge issue, with both men and women writing and railing against it. So if one of them happens to be a guy, that does not invalidate the claim.
DeleteI wasn't going to address the "immense pain" thing, as I indeed, and also a male, but maybe for some it's pain, for others it's annoyance, and yet others it's wistful frustration. At the risk of sounding too Leftist (ugh), "representation" is a Thing. For 50% of the population to look at publications and productions and NOT SEE THEMSELVES is demoralizing. We are not talking about live performances only including men, for halachic reasons, but about children's books written for all children which do not have girls or mothers in them (yes I have seen such things).
Yosef R - I agree with you its a problem, as I wrote below. But as also noted below, its a reaction to a much larger problem on the other side. One has no credibility, whatsoever, if he only criticizes one side while ignoring the other.
DeleteAnd that was the broader thrust of my comment. We all have a touch of hypocrisy within us, but RNS has it in spades. This blog - and I've been here a long time - has transitioned from the subject of rationalist Judaism to RNS's opinions. And that's fine. But if one wishes his opinions to have any force at all, there must be some consistency. The hypocrisy he has shown in the past few weeks has been stunning. [or maybe they don't, and they just think they do] but
Thanks Leah. Absurd is spot on. Any women who is in "immense pain" over this issue is either a)not chareidi and shouldn't be speaking for us b) has emotional/psychological issues c) latched on to the feminist agenda (so sad) or d) a creation of the blogger's imagination to fit his agenda (also pathetic)
DeleteHilarious or really sad either way.
It's called the free market for a reason. You want to advertise there, you want to shop there, you want to subscribe to it; go ahead.
DeleteOr dont.
But support living in a country with enough freedom to choose.
Ah, there's the rub: Judaism not compatible with freedom! Even rational (sic)
How about capitalism? Hmm
Yes, theoretically, there is the free market...
DeleteUnless one lives in an insulated community with limited options, or at least limited options if one still wants to be considered an upstanding member of the community.
Also, it's not just in a magazine here or there. It's in the dinner invitations, the event flyers, the school and camp brochures, the children's books, AND the newspapers/magazines. Should people boycott all of these options?
Some years ago Mishpacha magazine published an article on a mediaeval illuminated Machzor. In the accompanying pictures of the illuminations, they took great care to blank out the faces of women and girls
ReplyDeleteif chareidim want to thusly push around their XX chromosome folk , how is that our business?
ReplyDeleteBecause MO/DL folks look at the Chareidi world and while they don't want to pick it up wholesale, have a nagging feeling that "oh, that's more frum." Ideas then percolate in.
DeleteAlso, should we not stand up for Chareidi women?
It is quite painful to see Halacha and Masoret disregarded and talmidei chachamim afraid to speak out
ReplyDeleteIt is painful to have to defend an indefensible policy to people who say, "it's their Torah, it's their minhag"
It is painful to see the chillul hashem resulting from people now thinking that this is Torah
And yeah, as an author, who puts her face on posters of my book signings, I would find it very offensive to be asked to take it off as if it were somehow inappropriate or not tzanua
I haven't been, yet, as even the more chariedi places I speak at are in fact Shomer Torah uMitzvot and are not making stuff up
Why post your face on book flaps anyway? If people want to see my face go to Facebook.
DeleteKira,
Deleteyou imply in your response that there are talmidie chachamim who wish to speak out in favor of your position, but are afraid to do so. that is a very serious accusation, so i am wondering upon what it is based. did some of these talmidie chachamim tell you that they are afraid? did they explain what they are afraid of? it may be important to your readers to understand how you came to this conclusion.
RBSR
Why is it OK for you to question motive for a woman to post her picture on a book cover for her own book, but not on Facebook where conveniently you also have your picture, where it shouldn't be debated??
DeleteWhy this blazingly ridiculous double standard to everything you write??
Once again, you taking both sides of a valuable debate in the worst way possible.
Dude, Turk, If I'm holding a book in my hand, let's say on Shabbos afternoon, I might be curious about the author. I don't have FB, and I might not remember nor care enough after Shabbos to go to the computer and look up the author. Low importance, for sure, but it isn't simply dismissable.
Delete@Yosef R Yes, I agree. You make a good point.
DeleteI find it amusing.
ReplyDeleteGreat post, but interesting timing :).
ReplyDeleteI'd add the ads in Israel promoting mammography but refusing the mention breast cancer.
While the efforts gone to concealing pictures of women are indeed humorous, I would like to point out that there would be a great solution to any offence caused - avoiding showing pictures of men as well as women.
ReplyDeleteI hope in your coming posts you will also discuss the merits and drwabacks of the concentration on personalities that is so prevalent in the modern world - I believe that this distracts attention from the real issues.
While I am younger than you, I am old enough to remeber the days when there was no necessity to post photo albums when advertising events.
I agree. The New Yorker magazine famously never had any pictures at all. Then Tina Brown became editor and RUINED EVERYTHING!
DeleteThat is certainly AN answer, but not THE answer. Individual people might say that they do not want pictures of their kids in school promotional media in case "someone" gets their hands on them, and that would suffice for not having pictures of boys as well as girls. But let's face it, we are a visual animal, and advertisements with pictures or news with pictures will grab us more strongly! Tribute videos at fundraisers have interviews with people - and the men are interviewed in person, in full view, and in larger numbers, while women get fewer interviews and only in shadow or in voiceover. Should we edit the men's interviews also? Should be stop the video entirely? Eino domeh sh'mi'ah l're'iyah, right? Sure, one can decry the need we have for slick advertisement flyers and video clips or whatever, but the fact is that we use them. And the feeling of tension the night of Bin Laden's capture is captured excellently in that picture - it enhances the article!
DeleteCan you explain why you think that a picture of a wedding published in Talmud HaYisraeli by Yediot Achronot (decidedly nothing to do with chareidim) belongs in this discussion?
ReplyDeleteIt's also really bizarre because the Talmud Yisraeli publishes pictures of women, even secular women, all the time. I'd like to see what the context is here (perhaps it really *is* a question of shaliach, as they joke), and even proof that this is really from there.
Delete@Nachum: you didn't fully understand the joke. It's possible to give Kiddushin by a shaliach, but not to make Nissu'in.
DeleteMy guess would be that they borrowed the picture from a frum comics, as the style is very reminiscent of such books.
Ah, that went over my head!
DeleteYou may be right. But they *do* have their own artists...
If that is not bad enough, you should see how they draw non Jews especially Blacks and Arabs. But of course, Jews are not racists. The bottom line is that many charedim view women as a klee, a baby making machine of sorts and that is it. One Rabbi is strict and so many others feel they have to be the same way, because you cannot appear to be easy. God forbid, if you are that because God will hurl thunderbolts or Corona at you. We are becoming more and more like the Muslims.
ReplyDelete“ If that is not bad enough, you should see how they draw non Jews especially Blacks and Arabs.”
DeleteLike Charlie Hebdo.
Eh, low blow, my friend. That implies that Hebdo deserved to be attacked. You usually stand against such moral equivalencing. (I may have made up that word...)
DeleteMost of us say, every day, אשר בחר בנו מכל עמים. If that makes you uncomfortable, you have two options. The better one is for you to consider that maybe you've drank too much of the koolaid, and that its your opinions that are mistaken, and not your 3000+ year old religion.
DeleteCharlie Hebdo is a satirical magazine.
Delete@Yosef No, I support Charlie Hebdo. I meant to say that they are a good example of cartooning Arabs. And frankly, they deserve it, or at least the vast majority of them who wish to eradicate Israel. Anyway, it’s not like the Arabs don’t draw anti Semitic cartoons of Jews and Americans in their magazines.
DeleteArgh DF -I'm stuck on Unknown's side again here - Asher Bachar Banu is not because we are beautiful angels and everyone else is miserable pig-dogs! It's because we have a moral obligation, and that obligation includes not drawing non-Jews as gross overstereotypes. Having been on the receiving end of that one more than once should teach us something, shouldn't it, even we are not the dominant culture or if the publications under discussions are just Parsha sheets for a few schools in the community...
DeleteYosef R - you're correct, but no one argues with that. We all agree gentiles should not be portrayed as miserable pig dogs. The commenter who claimed otherwise is just speaking nonsense. However, we do view ourselves as the chosen people, and that is not - contrary to PR claims - merely the imposition of an exclusive mission upon us. It means that we are BETTER (and THUS the imposition of a mission upon us.) It is obvious, and no one says otherwise, that superior people need not and should not brag or strut or put other people down.
DeleteDF Jews are not a race. I do not agree with some rabbis that we are biologically superior. Anyone could become a Jew. Indeed, Abraham, Jacob, Moses (at one point), and Ruth, were non-Jewish. Yes, we are better in the sense by the mission we are given to be a Light to the nations, but we should recall the metaphor of G-d asking for all the nations to His. And eventually they will when they all become Jewish when the messiah arrives (Rambam).
DeleteI agree that it is wrong to depict non-Jews as pigs as a) we don’t like it when they draw mean cartoons of us and b) Abraham, our father was a non-Jew. However, mean Arabs deserve what they get.
Looking foward!
ReplyDeleteI just wanted to mention that I find chareidi news websites, and especially kikar hashabbos, to be a lot more progressive on that specific point, and I always wondered why it is so? Maybe because they're more exposed to outside viewers.
Quite laughable how a few publications somehow become the standard and representatives of all of the Yeshiva world. Do most people in Lakewood or Bnei Brak even get these publications?!
ReplyDeleteGotta love Natans stereotyping of all chareidim into one homogeneous blob. Natan, why do you still believe you have any connection or understanding of a community that you divorced yourself from nearly 2 decades ago? A lot has happened/changed since you've been gone, we kinda miss you...
go to the website he links to. You will be amazed at how pervasive this is. I live in a USA community outside of NY, and someone who was making an event with a woman speaker was asked to remove the picture from the flyer. It is NOT "just a few publications."
DeleteAnd anyway, since 30-40 years ago, NO publications behaved this way, the advent of "a few publications" doing this indicates an increase of infinity percent, which sounds to me like a significant increase.
I agree.
DeleteHere in L.A., it's not "our way" to leave out women's images or even names in 98.5% of the community. Yet when a new publication started here a couple years back, the vocal 1.5% sent hatemail to the publication after the first few issues because women's images were in the magazine (as mentioned before, even in Haredi circles, women's faces appear here).
The first edition of the "no women's faces" policy in that magazine was the edition which covered the murder of a Yid and attempted murder of other Yidden in Poway. The woman who died al kiddush Hashem did not have her face in the magazine even though all the men involved did. What kind of message is that?
In a strange way I totally understand the *spiritual* reason why this is done. But this is a remnant from thousands of years ago and it's not just ultra-Hareidi jewish sects doing it.
ReplyDeleteI think our species will just never drop this social practice not because men control the social conversation, but women allow them. There will always be women who are perfectly happy disappearing at home and whose whole existence is in the children they produce, almost competitively.
Even in Tanach, it's really difficult to find passages of pshat about women NOT involved in competitive childbearing.
It infuriates me that women are considered hysterical and practically stupid even by necessary spiritual texts like Chovos haLevavos.
But...in all, if someone considers having lots of kids the sum total of their existence, that's completely fine! That's great!
...Just don't insist that all women must sit and knit and twiddle their thumbs and wait for a man to pay their bills for them, or protect men that abuse families because of a dangerous misapplication if "loshon hara" accusations.
The talmud says that women are endowed with more understanding than men. Many rabbis also consider women more holy. for example, women keep Shabbat longer then men when they light the shabbat candles. Thus, women are more holy per se. The Bible also has many good things to say about women. Traditional Judaism is pro-women but I would not venture to be pro-feminist.
Delete"Even in Tanach, it's really difficult to find passages of pshat about women NOT involved in competitive childbearing."
DeleteI can think of quite a few off the top of my head.
Traditional Judaism (mishna: Horayos 3:7) says male lives matter more than female ones. I don't pasken this way l'halacha / I think religion has obvious limits.
Delete@Hat Talmud says that women are endowed with more understanding than men. Actually, women might be more holy, too. Since they keep Shabbat longer than men. They light the Shabbat candles.
DeleteLol, it's good to hear that "you don't pasken" like the Mishna, Hat. HAHAHAHAHHH tell me, what do you say about Leviticus 27:4, maybe you "dont pasken" like that bit of "traditional" Judaism either??
DeleteThank you, I needed that laugh. Tho I am personally happy to have a few lefties here to kick around, I do wonder from a sociological perspective what you're doing on this blog, if you're not religious. Like I wouldn't bother commenting on liberal media sites, so I wonder what you're doing here. (I sincerely hope you don't imagine that you're convincing anyone. None of us entertain such high-minded sentiments.)
Regarding "האיש קודם לאשה להחיות," (הוריות יג ע"ב) the Rambam is not referenced as ruling like this Mishnah (not sure about the Tur but I didn't find him ruling as such either). Just from quick Googling of האיש קודם לאשה להחיות "משנה תורה" I found these interesting sources: https://www.orharambam.com/forum/cde8e55f/my-qvdm-lmy-bhtslt-npshvt-hysh-v-hyshh and https://www.sefaria.org/sheets/161019.3?lang=bi
DeleteSo your overarching statement that traditional Judaism "says male lives matter more than female ones" is not quite what the Mishnah says, but an assumption. See however the orharambam link above which argues "והיא לפי מעלתם: אם האיש במעלה גדולה מן האשה הוא קודם להצלה, ואם האשה חשובה וחכמה ממנו יש להעדיף אותה על פניו." I think one can understand how even a century ago, before women were exposed to formal education, things were quite different from today's times vs. when the Mishnah would have made such a seemingly general statement, and even that statement the Rambam in his broadminded perspective (cf. Rambam in סוף פ"ד הלכות יסודי התורה "ואפשר שידעם הכל, קטן וגדול, איש ואשה, בעל לב רחב ובעל לב קצר") seems to have understood in his own way per the above.
You should see what the Rambam says. But it's clear from what he writes that he's stating the truth of the time: Women were not as educated as men. He then calls for them to be educated.
Delete@ Turk
Delete"Traditional Judaism is pro-women but I would not venture to be pro-feminist."
I agree, but pro-women in the context of women and girls primarily as mothers or future mothers.
This doesn't mean I don't acknowledge that even traditional women can't work outside the home (they do) or there haven't been absolutely groundbreaking decisions even millennia ago (example: daughters of Tzelophad) but the usual daily role of women as taught in everyday conversation or classes are primarily mothers, or future mothers, or childless women who strain with desire for children but cannot. Every traditional For Women section of frum sites are vastly dedicated to "motherhood", not "womenhood".
I pasken like Rabbi Lau that gays should not be stabbed to death, Leviticus or not. So does literally every single frum Jew bar one who is in prison where he belongs.
DeleteEveryone knows right from wrong.
That's why the Rambam and the Shulchan Aruch and Rabbi Lau don't pasken starkly like a Mishna or a passuk which is clearly underevolved.
@Unknown you may want to check a Bible. In it, you will read that women play roles other than motherhood. For example, Dvorah was a prophetess and General. Moses’ life was saved by women in mutable occasions. Ruth was a convert who preceded Kings David and Solomon and the eventual Messiah himself.
Delete@ Turk
DeleteConsidering the womens' sections on frum websites I would never have guessed that non-maternal stories of women exist.
Again. Modern frum digital spaces dedicated to women are wholly absorbed in "MOTHERHOOD" and not "WOMANHOOD".
Considering ancient decisions like the Tzelophad women, the current religious world is going dangerously backward in dealing with women's issues.
BTW, Talmid, thank you for the link, which was interesting. It more or less confirmed my expectations.
DeleteClassically, we are taught that the role of rishonim was interpreting and expounding the intended meaning earlier generations, and not injecting their own views, but the reality is that each generation, starting from the tanna'im on "ayin tachas ayin" inflects such interpretations with its own sense of right and wrong. IMO carefully measured creative jurisprudence is what keeps Jewish Orthodoxy alive.
Just an Arakhim aside: isn't it that the monetary values associated with males vs females represent the value as a slave? Generically, one can get more work out of a larger and more muscular man than a woman. I don't think this is ground-breaking or surprising.
DeleteIf anyone post-Biblically wants to come up with a metaphysical interpretation about this issue, that's on them, not on the Torah.
In other areas: sure there are conflicting lines in the Gemara, propping up or tearing down women. Of course, many are taken out of context to mean more than something very limited (like "Nashim Da'atan Kalos") and then used as a misogynistic bludgeon which is never how it was meant. I like Turk's phraseology here - Torah is often pro-woman even if it is not outright feminist. Of course, being pro-woman in a hypermasculine Bronze Age society kinda sorta IS feminist, for the time period.
I'm not by any means Chabad, but my understanding is the last Rebbe would absolutely refuse to approve any Chabad publications for children if they only had pictures of boys. He always insisted on pictures of girls as well as boys. It's a shame that is a minority view now.
ReplyDeleteThis is true. He returned the first issue of the Tzivos Hashem magazine to the editor and told him to include an equal number of boys and girls.
DeleteI think his death heavily contributed to the frum community absolutely going dangerously in reverse in regards to anything social or political the past few decades :(
DeleteThat's interesting, I'd appreciate if you can give a source for that story which I can cite when talking to others.
DeleteIs there a difference between whether the woman pictured is alive or not?
ReplyDelete(I have to check this, but i believe Chabad publications printed pictures of the Rebbe's mother, who passed away in 1965, but not the Rebbe's wife, until after her passing in 1988.)
They also don't have first names!
ReplyDeletehttps://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/headlines-breaking-stories/1870261/frum-female-leaders-unite-to-support-chaim-deutsch-for-congress.html
That's not entirely true. If they're dead they have first names.
DeleteHere's an interesting story:
ReplyDeleteA while back, I was asked to help edit a history book, published by one of the major Orthodox publishing houses. My job was to choose pictures and assign captions. I was also involved in identifying which pictures were in the public domain, which weren't and required permission (and sometimes payment) and how they needed to be attributed.
There was a very moving picture of a group of children who had survived a pogrom. The picture had been used before by the publishing house in a previous volume. But upon investigation, it turned out the photo had been retouched. What was the issue? One of the girls, early teens I would say, in the picture (who was bandaged from a severe attack) was shown with her chest exposed. The picture was retouched in such a way that the area appeared covered.
I did not think this was that big a deal, but the institution from which the picture originated was aghast that it had been published that way and forbade the publishers from using it again unless they showed the girl, essentially, topless. We chose not to use the picture a second time.
#13 the womans shopping spree has a picture of the men waiting while the women are obviously busy trying on their clothes! Duh!
ReplyDeleteAll kidding aside, leaving out the kallah in a drawing of a chuppah is ridiculous! I am not pained by it but I think it sets a very bad example to little girls & it reflects poorly on the men that require 3 year old girls to wear tights or burquas lest they be aroused!
Yeah, it's an old joke.
DeleteI belonged to a Young Israel (NCYI) synagogue. Women could be, and were, elected to posts within the synagoguu. By the NCYI constitution, women were ineligible to be "shul" president. Not clear how many male presidents delegated some of their responsibilities to their wives. (Was a participant in a Mizrachi minytan hosted there, but a "shul" member as well.) There are so many ways males Jews have to disrespect women.
ReplyDeleteThat position certainly can be questioned, but you would be hard-pressed to really find how Young Israels disrespect women. They are in charge of many committees and programs. Just the "head" leadership position is barred. Again, I can see the argument against, but I also can see the logistic difficulties of going against it.
DeleteThe NCYI also doesn't allow gerim to be president.
DeleteIt should be noted that #13 is a modern Orthodox magazine The View (formerly TV Views) and do include images of women.
ReplyDeleteI think it's an ad.
DeleteNo, a weekly feature.
Delete"It infuriates me that women are considered hysterical..."
ReplyDeleteBaby making machines--precisely!
Aim! Magazine, which is frequently more progressive than its parent publication, showed a week ago a photograph of what looked like an eight- or nine-year-old girl. I think we're making progress.
ReplyDeleteThe first time I ran into an instance of women disappearing in print was about 30 years ago when I lived in Baltimore. The Agudah shule had a neshei and I picked up a copy of their newsletter, a newsletter written *by* women *for* women, mind you. Being a local shule rag, and before the current era where desktop publishing software was even invented (I think), there were no pictures of any kind. But neither were women even mentioned throughout the paper. Oh sure, you could find Mrs. *Schmuel* Goldstein, or Mrs. *Josef* Friedman, etc., etc. Indeed, this is worse than expunging photographs because the women themselves were, in a real sense, expunged. What if one of them was a widow? Or single? I would like to know how they'd solve that dilemma -- Mrs. Pesach Greenblat a"h or the daughter of Mr. Zvi Kaplan? Seriously, would it be possible to be more disrespectful or disdainful? We let Blacks ride in the front of the bus but not our women. "Female Lives Matter"... I guess... don't they?
ReplyDeleteCan someone explain to the listening audience how you can conclude that a picture of a modestly dressed woman is still not modest enough to print? When will we ban women from leaving the house altogether, except of course to travel to the labor and delivery room and mikvah? Where does this, to my mind, off-the-deep-end notion of modesty come from? Because there is overwhelming evidence, in *pictures* that this is a novel concept. How would those who think that innovation is forbidden explain this?
That was of course the style about a hundred years ago. Needless to say, it was long gone even before thirty years ago.
DeleteIn Hadassah Hospital's new wing there's a list, carved in the stone wall, of all the presidents of Hadassah. (All women, of course.) Now, this list was only carved a few years ago- and we *know* the first names of all these women. And yet after the first two, who were unmarried and thus "Miss X Y," you have a whole bunch of "Mrs. Moshe Cohen"s before it phases into "Mrs. Sarah Cohen" and eventually "Ms. Sarah Cohen" (and increasingly "Dr. Sarah Cohen.") In other words, each woman is listed in the style she herself used.
If you're looking for another example, here's one I found a while back. In the Aug 2011 issue of Zman Magazine, there's a story about the Tylenol poisoning scare in the early 80s. It includes the following picture of health dept employees testing Tylenol medicines https://azdailysun.com/news/25-years-later-tylenol-tampering-case-remains-unsolved-and-survivors-hurt-unassuaged/article_833f7e83-0277-52e3-8a89-67f43f6a8f6e.html -- However, in the Zman article, the women are erased. Perhaps one of your readers has a copy he can scan for you.
ReplyDeleteActually, in #11 Hillary is shown seated. Might want to remove that one from your list.
ReplyDeleteThat's the original, shown for comparison.
Delete@ Turk
DeleteYes, let's replace her with a president who bragged about slowing COVID19 test kits to millions of people.
We just passed 3,000,000 people sick and 130,000 dead here in the US because even religious people were convinced 3 years ago a man with supposedly a lot of money could do better.
Someone's got a bee in his bonnet.
Delete@Unknown Actually, Trump probably saved hundreds of thousands of lives when he placed a travel ban on China. Meanwhile, Bernie Slanders said he would keep open borders even during coronavirus and Hitlary would have deleted the email about corona altogether.
Delete@Nachum
DeleteHillary's picture was clearly erased from the photo which means it absolutely belongs here.
@ Turk
We were already through this.
It was not a travel ban, it saved zero lives because the medical community verified the virus entered from Europe.
Trump repeatedly said this was just the flu andTrump also said this was going to magically disappear.
Trump's party openly said that elderly people would be happy to die for the economy.
All that is objective reality.
Trump repeatedly bragged about slowing national test kits and therefore he and anyone still propping him up is utterly responsible for the current sick (+4,000,000) and dead (+130,000) here in the US.
Thanks for the "statistics", which Mark Twain and Benjamin Disraeli both observed long ago is just another word for "lies." You can believe whatever you want to believe. But you're badly fooling yourself if you think the rest of the world shares your beliefs. Indeed, as the original post stated, Charedim and Chilonim alike see through the nonsense. It's a politically manufactured "crisis" to attempt to unseat a popular president. It wont work, but sadly it has succeeded in ruining the country. Ever heard of cutting off one's nose to spite his face? That's exactly what happened.
Delete(One small bit of gallows humor has been the twisting and contortions this has put the left in. We all saw the hypocrisy of democrats pushing for social distancing, but happily join in BLM marches. From the Jewish angle, we have Bibi haters having a great weapon to attack him with, but afraid to use it because it would undermine the fraudulent attack on Trump. But I don't get joy of seeing left wing hypocrisy. I would prefer if the right had stood up to the nonsense instead of buckling.)
"Trump repeatedly bragged about slowing national test kits and therefore he and anyone still propping him up is utterly responsible for the current sick (+4,000,000) and dead (+130,000) here in the US."
DeleteWhat a damnable thing to say. Trump and his supporters are NOT responsible for the 130,000 American deaths from Corona. The riots, which the Left supports, are responsible. And what are you protesting at this point anyway? Floyd's dead and is in the ground. Get over it.
The Left openly condoned the riots and toppling of statues. They also claim that every time Trump holds a rally, people get sick; but when these liberal cities hold mass protests or riots which comprise of tens of thousands of people, people are safe because its for a "good cause." To dumb it down for you, basically, the "cause" makes you immune to corona. But does any bit of this sound familiar at all? Didn't the Gedolim a few months ago also claim that Torah study protects one from getting sick because "the Torah protects?" Of course, it is good to study Torah but Rav Chaim said that "cancelling yeshivah studies [was] more dangerous than being exposed to coronavirus." And you supported RNS then.
Now, with these "peaceful protester" where tens of thousands of people participate without masks, you support their gathering because of the "cause." No cause is worth the death of thousands, and yet you perpetuate their lies, their narratives. But the world works according to the laws of nature. If two people fall off the same roof, one a Tzadik and the other a murder, both will fall and hit the ground the same second as according to the laws of gravity. Natural law does not distinguish between good or bad. Similarly, to say that you will "not get sick" because of the cause is pseudo-science at best and the denial of real science at worst. It's stupid.
Btw, Mis. Hitlary is in the picture. Open your eyes and take a look.
DeleteTurk, my friend, you are looking at the wrong picture. She is in the ORIGINAL picture, which is displayed in color on this page. In the one published in the Chareidi newspaper, which is in black and white on this page, please note that she is missing - as is the woman who was peering between the shoulders of two men in the back.
DeleteTurk Hill - astute comparison of the riots to learning Torah, I had not picked up on the connection. On surface it appears like still more hypocrisy, which we've seen recently here in spades. But its actually worse. The Charedim never promoted or stoked the artificial hysteria that is Covid. Moreover, to the small extent there is any risk to older people, many genuinely believe that Torah protects. By contrast, the left are responsible for all of the lies and fake statistics, to unseat a popular president. They promoted all the nonsense, they're the ones trying to muzzle dissent, literally, by forcing everyone to wear masks. And yet they were the ones behind the marches.
DeletePoint is, its much worse than what you wrote. The left aren't saying "the cause protects" - they're not even bothering to defend themselves, because they know the whole thing is baloney.
@DF
DeleteHow is Covid an "artificial hysteria"? Haven't something like 130,000 Americans died from it in the last few months?
I also am not sure how one claims Trump is a popular president -- his approval ratings over multiple polls seem to hover at the 40% mark.
@DF Yes, I agree with what you wrote. Good points.
Delete@Turk
Delete"China travel ban" is a misnomer. The ban was on visitors from China. US citizens and permanent residents were still free to travel back and forth.
My understanding from the news is that the "ban" slowed, but did not stop, travel between the US and China. Many tens of thousands of people still travelled from China to the US after the "ban" was put in place.
Trump is not directly responsible for the COVID-19 deaths, but he and his associates (esp. right-wing media) are probably responsible for making the problem far worse than it had to be.
"It was not a travel ban, it saved zero lives because the medical community verified the virus entered from Europe."
DeleteAnd Eurasia has always been at war with Eastasia.
@Joe Q.
DeleteStill, the travel ban stopped the spread of COVID-19 to the extent that it did. Better that than open borders, which is what Bernie Sanders suggested.
"Trump is not directly responsible for the COVID-19 deaths, but he and his associates (esp. right-wing media) are probably responsible for making the problem far worse than it had to be."
This sounds like a misnomer. It was Left-wing media who enticed protest and rioters to come on the streets in tens of thousands which no doubt enlarged the problem of the spreading of Coronavirus. Indeed, left media like CNN claimed that if one protested for a good "cause" one would become immune to coronavirus altogether. Let's see, where have we seen this before in the Charedim community?
You would have to prove that (1) protest in the tens of thousands had n systematic effect on the spread of COVID19 and (2) that right-wing, despite advocating for masks and social distancing, helped the spread in a spike of Coronavirus.
Miriam?
ReplyDeleteBnos Tzelafchad?
The zona who hid the Joshua spies?
Pilegesh b'Givah? (Ok, ok).
Dvorah the judge/prophetess?
The witch of Endor?
Michal bat Shaul?
Avigayil?
Ruth?
Esther?
Might want to remove the witch of Endor who was a fraud. It was a trick.
DeleteTurk Hill, so opineth Rambam. For a more complete discussion see page 53 of Prophets, Book I Samuel, Question 22, here:
Deletehttps://www.google.com/books/edition/The_Conciliator_of_R_Manasseh_Ben_Israel/TNP9VKBi-EgC?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=conciliator+amsterdam+ben+israel&pg=PR13&printsec=frontcover
In making the points that you do there is no need to mock gay relationships. Some people have two Dads, and homosexuals can be happy.
ReplyDeleteHe isn't mocking gay relationships. He is mocking that in a Chareidi publication, where it would never be that homosexuality would be even considered let alone publicized, following the ridiculous practice of eliminating women MAKES IT LOOK LIKE there are gay relationships.
DeleteSimilarly, I have seen in advertisements for events, how a couple is named ("and Presented with Alumnus of the Year, Mr. and Mrs. Burblesteyn") yet a picture of two men is included. Is it the husband and his rebbe? His father-in-law? Or does one yeshivish man go by the title "Mrs."? It is suggestive in a direction that they would not go.
Children who grow with two homosexuals, whether male or female never turn out as normies. It’s just not healthy.
DeleteLeaving aside whether mocking is called for, the whole joke that of course davka *charedim* have a problem with homosexuals, and yet here they are.
Delete...and these images aren't setting out to denigrate women. It just happens mimela (implicitly). Charedi families with 2 Dads isn't something to snicker about like a homophobic MJGS pupil stuck in the 1980s. Of course some Charedim are gay.
DeleteTurk - as usual - citation needed.
@Hat I would like a source(s) showing that children growing under homosexuals are normies. It just doesn't happen. People do not like the truth and feel threatened by it.
DeleteChildren who grow with two homosexuals, whether male or female never turn out as normies. It’s just not healthy.
DeleteI'm not aware of any studies which come to this conclusion. I am aware of some that come to the opposite conclusion.
It's interesting how this particular blog post has shown you to be such a bigot. First against women and now against homosexuals.
You know what the word bigot means, right? It is someone who’s against free speech. That’s you.
DeleteI’m not against women or homosexuals. I don’t care what gay people do in private, my religion just doesn’t allow we to show up at the wedding. Also, you should see how I defend the women’s right to become rabbis. Where’s the bigotry here?
I saw a T-shirt with a funny definition of the term “racist,” and I like it. “Racist” - a person who disagrees with anything leftist say.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_parenting and see sources quoted there.
DeleteNormies! heh. Studies show children who grow up with two heterosexual parents are much more prone to 'flipping out'
DeleteIs it overly conservative to remove women's pictures? Yes.
ReplyDeleteIs it a reaction against the over-feminization of the atheist world? Yes.
The pendulums are swinging. The best would be for BOTH sides to get back in the middle where they belong. To criticize one side while ignoring the other suggests either a) ignorance of the root cause, b) tacit support of the side you're ignoring, or c) אשתו מושלת עליו.
Love your balanced veiws, keep them coming! Would love to meet you in real life.....
DeleteOh good, DF, something I can sort of agree with you on.
DeleteSo I get the Maimonedean attitude of going completely to the other extreme in order to median-ify a behavior. But the problem here is that these Chareidi publications are not trying to median-ify our OWN over exposure of women, but as you poinbt out, they are reactions to portrayals of women in the surrounding culture. Would it not be better to provide healthy role models, dressed modestly, than none at all, forcing our children to only see the things we are struggling against in the first in the first place!
Is it healthy to create a culture where an old woman, having completed a week-long educational seminar thing, is terrified of having her picture taken with the rest of her group because her community would ostracize her simply for the act of being in a picture?? Yes - this happened, and my wife was the witness. This was a group of frum women, all dressed appropriately.
Should we say "oh, people don't really need commemorative pictures to remember friends and events" but c'mon!! Ein L'davar sof!
Yosef R - there's no conscious attempt to swing the pendulum to the golden mean. Every action begets a reaction, and the feminization of atheist society has begotten the "masculinization" (to coin a word) of the religious. Neither extreme is healthy. If one wishes to criticize, he should show some seichel and recognize the source of the problem. To criticize only the charedim, as though this position just happened in a vaccum, is ignorant, blatantly one-sided, and unproductive. And one need not digress into secular society issues. Have you seen the OU lately or their magazine? Kimat nothing but women. Getting darn near impossible to read it.
DeleteTo criticize one side while ignoring the other suggests...
Delete... that Rabbi Slifkin is a Jew, concerned with things that affect Jews, and not a "feminizing atheist".
This whole "they made us do it because they did X!" is a tiresome excuse. Hiding women in Mispacha Magazine doesn't change a single billboard, nor any Victoria's Secrets catalogs.
Meanwhile, as I write this, the Israeli police have ticketed a ten year old Charedi girl for - GASP! - LIFTNG HER MASK TO TAKE A DRINK, OMG!!! And we all saw what that idiot mayor in NYC did. I better never again hear anyone stupid enough to claim there's no discrimination against religious Jews. And what kind of Jew worries about "Black Lives Matter" when our own people are being persecuted?
ReplyDeleteAnd Bibi haters of the world, now's your chance. You read what RNS wrote. These stupid draconian mask laws are a failure and pointless and despised across the political sector. You've attacked the man for dumb reasons for 20 years, and deservedly got nowhwere. Finally you have something legitimate to attack him with. Where have you disappeared??? Failure to speak up now, when it's needed, will mark you forever as hypocrites.
I agree. No Jew should ever support blm until blm cries about the annual murder of 900 innocent black babies who are guillotined everyday. Until then, blm is a slogan to say that only black lives matter. It’s stupid because everyone knows that black lives matter. It a moral principle. All lives matter equally. No one is above the law. And yet, these liberals cry and lecture us about black lives as if we don’t know the basic moral fact that all lives matter. What a shame.
DeleteAll black babies matter. Like the 60% of them that are ABORTED in NYC alone.
DeleteYou should check the JewishTimes. Nowadays, every front cover shows a picture of a woman, for some reason.
ReplyDeleteI think the Women's Shopping Spree picture was intended as a humorous depiction of the stereotypical man suffering while his wife shops.
ReplyDeletehttps://www.boredpanda.com/funny-miserable-men-shopping-photos/?utm_source=google&utm_medium=organic&utm_campaign=organic
Eh, possible. But more likely that if women were allowed to be shown, then that would not have been the angle chosen. Or is Torah Judaism now all about the quasi-misogynistic humor now: "Women, they always be shoppin', amirite?"
DeleteTake a look at what is missing from the lineage chart at this wiki page: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bobov_(Hasidic_dynasty)
ReplyDelete@ Sedgwick
Deleteugh
Between things like this and the horrible too-common depiction of women as hysterical, shopaholics and stupid (not just in religious communities, but in humanity in general) it's going to take a lot of patience to right this ship.
Eventually even the Matriarch's names will be blotted out.
"Eventually even the Matriarch's names will be blotted out."
DeleteEvery time Chassidim submit a 'qvittel' they specifically use the mother's name and not the poor what's-his-name father's ;)
@Unknown
ReplyDeleteThe following are a few questions I would like him to answer. Unless, of course, he prefers to run and hide.
(1) If it was discovered that ancient amalekites were black, or better yet, modern amalekites are black, would you openly condone racism? And how can you be fighting racism when you take part in the Torah's "racist" war against the amalekite peoples?
(2) You shout that BLM and yet we never hear you cry about the 900 annual murder of innocent black babies killed every day, or the countless murder of black-on-black crimes. Why is that? Or do not all black lives matter?
(3) BLM states that they intend to "free" Palestine from the "white imperialist" Israelites that, like America, built civilization on "stolen" Palestinian land. Since you openly support their movement, why do you oppose anti-semites and Israel's enemies who wish to eradicate Israel which BLM sponsors?
@Unknown I suspected you would run rather than answer the question.
DeleteUnknown may not have answered, but i'll give it a shot.
Delete1) Let's say Amalek was black. Okay.... Dan was black. Tzipporah eshes Moshe was black. Ethiopians were black. There is no chiuv to kill everyone who looks like Amalek. If Amalek today are the Arabs, there is no chiuv to exterminate all Semitic peoples. And what if Amalek was white? Does that mean there is a Torah imperative to kill all whites? Of course not! By the way, the Gemara famously says Amalek today is "Germania shel Edom."
2) Of course all black lives matter! but the issue right now is qualified immunity; in other words the freedom for an officer to kill whomever whenever and get away with it. Just because Jews ran Murder Inc doesn't mean it was okay for state sanctioned murder of innocent people in the '30s and '40s. Imagine if someone's response to US involvement in WW2 was "They kill each other anyway in the streets of NY. Who's protesting that? Maybe they should take care of themselves before we address how the government treats them here and overseas."
3) BLM is a loose organization of people who agree on one thing only - black lives matter. There are Zionists, Anti Zionists, Marxists, Anti Marxists, Capitalists, Anti Capitalists, you name it, coming together to protest the murder of innocents. Imagine if i lumped you in with Neturei Karta because you're an Orthodox Jew. You're doing the same thing here.
Thank you, MV for answering the questions. I agree with (1)'s premises. Moses married a black and Ethiopians Jews are black. Just as Jews are not a race so it is with Amalek. Amalek represents the evil of the world, symbolically. You make good points. I disagree with (2) and (3), namely because there is no statistical evidence that police kill more blacks than white. In fact, more whites are statistically killed by police.
DeleteAs of last year, there were only 10 unarmed police shootings of blacks. About half of the suspects rushed the police, so it was self-defense. One was an accident and two cops were fully charged. We're down to two shootings of innocent blacks by police. Compare that number to the 7,000 black-on-black shootings and the annual 900 abortions per day, there's no contest. If anything, last year was the safest year for black male suspects. The black approval rating for the police is also rising, so it's simply not true that blacks face a greater threat from cops than white people.
As for point (3), the anti-Semitic/Pro-Palestinian narrative can be found on the BLM website. Of course, not all BLM supporters condone this view, but it is the view expressed by the founders of BLM.
I agree that black lives matter. In fact, all lives matter, black lives included. What I dislike is the notion that no lives matter until black lives matter. Its most left media trying to bombard us of basic morality which we already know.
@ Turk
DeleteI'm your "unknown" study buddy and very much still here.
--"Compare that number to the 7,000 black-on-black shootings and the annual 900 abortions per day, there's no contest."--
It's very interesting how the religious community especially in the US rushes with fiery wings to defend the in utero, while gleefully supporting a party that allowed 135,000 deaths in less than five months and almost 4,000,000 sick through historic willful negligence.
Literally bragged about not wearing masks, not social distancing, allowed a theme park to open in the middle of an uncontrolled breakout, and is now trying to use opposition propaganda on the non-partisan virologist who has faithfully served under both parties.
Allows separation of destitute families (which is being investigated as feeding child trafficking here in the US) and makes being destitute a FEDERAL crime.
Allows the private insurance industry to take in tens of thousands of dollars from subscribers and not actually cover medical care.
Actively defunds schools and social services so they can't effectively deal with those children you want to be born so badly.
Continually fights to allow employers to end employment on reasons far removed from actual job performance or responsible job behavior.
The US conservative, religious "pro life" crowd being in support of no actual pro-life policies is very very common and thank G-d something that's being uncovered for what it is day by day.
@Unknown
DeleteDiversion tactic. They're not pro-life, they're not pro anything. They want to allow abortion. Why? Because the Democrats only care about the young generation. Yes, it'd be nice to have free education, free health care, free money, but (1) how can we afford it and (2) why do they deserve it? People never appreciate free stuff. This young generation only wants free things, but they don't want to work for it. They want free college. But who's going to pay? And do they have to work for that free college? No. This is Communism. Because Democrats only care about this young generation. What happens to the next when all the resources are used up?
Furthermore, the Left allowed 130,000 deaths when THEY supported protest which consisted in tens of thousands of participants. This is what helped spread the virus more than anything. And yes, if you tear down a statue that is a FEDERAL crime.
Also, the left never wants to talk about the problem faced by 70% of black students in California who can't read. In Baltimore, only two students of color are proficient at math. In New York, 80% of non-white students can't pass a basic reading test while Asian immigrants, who at first couldn't speak English excelled in English studies. The Left doesn't want to talk about these issues because they only care about police brutality, which statistically speaking, is very small in comparison to black-on-black crimes. 'It's racist to talk about these issues' they say.
So ask yourself, who's more pro-life, pro-black, pro-American. The Left communist party or the Republican party?
BTW, socialist is in the very name nazi. “Nazi” is short for “National Socialist." But you will never see the name Conservative in Fascism. Winston Churchill put it this way, "The fascist of the future (Antifa) will call themselves anti-fascist."
You can't make this stuff up.
Hi again @Turk meister!
DeleteParagraph I:
--"Yes, it'd be nice to have free education, free health care, free money, but (1) how can we afford it [...]"--
The United States under Trump just gave away $1,900,000,000,000 ($1.9tr) in tax returns to billionaires and millionaires.
My word HOW will we afford national health care? :[
Par. II:
The Floyd protests began on May 26th.
There were 100,000 deaths by May 1, long before protests became.
They didn't even cause a significant number of cases:
https://www.forbes.com/sites/tommybeer/2020/07/01/research-determines-protests-did-not-cause-spike-in-coronavirus-cases/
...because BLM wasn't protesting the medical community.
Trump supporters were protesting the medical community with long gun armed protests at State capitals.
Any increase of cases were found through contact tracing to be caused by beauty parlors, restaurants and bars.
Won't comment on the flagrantly racist paragraphs afterward...
But Par. 5:
We've been through this before on another post here on RJ, Turk.
Refreshing your memory:
"Republic" is in China's official name, the People's Republic of China. That DEFINITELY means that Republicans are more than willing to let all production be owned by governmental dictate, squash anti-goverment speech through military action, and perform loyalist monitoring on individuals...because that's definitely how human beings naming things works all the time.
@Unknown
DeleteThe Forbes essay which claims that protest did nothing to help spread the spike in coronavirus is stupid. Of course, people in the tens of thousands, standing two feet apart, without masks can't be the cause of coronavirus, G-d forbid!... We already been over this.
"Won't comment on the flagrantly racist paragraphs afterward..."
Ok. So now the facts are racist?
""Republic" is in China's official name."
Names don't mean anything. I can make a new party and call it the Pony party, but like Antifa, its members go and murder people. 'But we're the pony party!' No, names mean not a thing.
" for women it can be a source of immense pain, as well as other harmful effects"
ReplyDeleteWould you agree that within the Chareidi community this is virtually nonexistent? Pick their brains to see why and let others in on their secret.
"I've had a taste of what it feels like to be erased"
ReplyDeleteYou had something of a different magnitude.
As ridiculous a component of haredi ideology as this is, I find it difficult to get worked up about this while America burns down.
ReplyDeleteWell said.
DeleteConsidering flyers have appeared in numerous places in Israel blaming coronavirus on women's lack of tzniuskeit (not an exaggeration, this has happened in several places in Israel), I think the timing is very appropriate.
DeleteThis will come off as crude, but so be it. Not being raised frum and coming back to what calls itself "authentic" Judaism, after 20 plus years, I still see myself from the outside looking in. It seems that many Orthodox Jews have the opposite of penis envy and have penis guilt or dread. On one hand, we are supposed to have sex(but not enjoy it too much) to procreate and not just on a fling. Weird prayers, good thoughts, women not to see the face of a cat or a another person coming out of the mikvah(because the baby will come out looking that way), etc. Low tech eugenics by marrying off of one good family to the next in hopes they produce a better person and son. I say dread or guilt because it seems that sex is just a duty and men are in fear of getting aroused otherwise. The onus is put on the women and not so much on the guys. At least we do not have Islamic style courts and honor killings...at least not yet. Now I know that not all religious Jews are not like that, but it seems they are in a minority. But it seems that when you make a person second class, etc it makes that person think little of themselves and they submit or rebel and this is a shame. Where I came from in the states, I did not see much of this in the Jewish community. But coming to Israel has convinced of many things, one of them is that there is schism in Judaism among the orthodox and nobody is talking about it. Also this subject and others may draw people closer but after awhile, when the initial high of being connected wears off and people think, they will off the derech as the popular phrase goes,
ReplyDeleteSounds like you could benefit from watching or reading Rabbi Manis Friedman on this topic. (He's most watched Rabbi on YouTube)
DeleteSounds like you are in serious need of being around NORMAL people. Of course, that may exclude 100% of the Jews that you know. Especially frum ones.
DeleteCome, join us.
Am I understanding your commentary correctly that someone taught you not to be aroused by your own wife and not to enjoy sex with her? Where did you hear of such a requirement for husband and wife to ensure they do not enjoy their relations together?!
DeleteI've never heard such a thing, nor would I ever pay attention to it if I did.
There is something to being a returnee but also not just believing everything you hear. Some people, who may be very frum, adhere to stringencies or have strange beliefs. It is worth ignoring some people. It is also important to seek out other opinions on a given topic and make sure you are fully informed. C'mon man
"The phenomenon of Charedi and Yeshivish magazines refusing to print pictures of women is well known." I am probably a bit older than most commentators here. This phenomenon did NOT exist at all when I was growing up. We would have thought such notions were crazy and not part of Judaism.
ReplyDeleteMy parents' generation says the same thing about separate seating at events (e.g. wedding receptions)
DeleteLooking in from the outside, it becomes pretty obvious that the effect of avoiding portrayal of women is, in the end, a form of hyper-sexualization of women (i.e., that any portrayal of a woman is inherently a sexually provocative thing).
ReplyDeleteThere are aspects of this even in the many applications of shemirat negiah, where shaking hands with a woman in a public, business context is also elevated to the status of a quasi-sexual act.
This is my view, as an outsider.
About Hillary (#11) you just have the pictures backwards. The "before" picture with her that has no headline, you put on bottom. Then the "after" picture without her - take note of the headline "באבוד רשעים רנה" -- "with the elimination of the evil there is song" -- celebrates her removal from the photo.
ReplyDeleteIs anybody reading this willing to admit that maybe just maybe their gaze lingers a little bit longer, ortor stare just a little bit more, or maybe they even gawk a bit depending on the picture. Anyone? That maybe there is some element of male eye checking out the female picture. Is that not a thing? Everyone reading this is pure white like the untrammeled snow, like the white thread of Yom Kippur.
ReplyDeleteNo one, right?
Yes. And therefore...?
DeleteFor all the people saying, "Normal women wouldn't be upset," -- why does that mean anything?
ReplyDeleteThere are children growing up in a world in which they see few women's faces, at least few JEWISH women's faces. We tell girls "We'll make a place for you here, in the Orthodox community," but when we show them otherwise (by eliminating their photos), they don't always believe us. Research into why people leave the Torah world indicates "feeling women don't have a place in the community" is a significant driver for both women and (more surprisingly) men who leave.
If we want women to feel included in the Orthodox world, we need to include them in photos of the Orthodox world. If we want people to emulate fine Jewish women, we should show their faces unless they themselves don't want to.
Besides the fact: How many "normal" people do you know? And who gets to decide who a "normal woman" is, anyway?
Normal is overrated, anyway. ;)
This Chassid (Chabad) lecture shows faces of women. See women's studies on Maimonides here: https://www.chabad.org/blogs/blog_cdo/aid/4807515/jewish/Join-the-Womens-Siyum-Celebration.htm
DeleteGive credit where credit is due.